Questions About Titles

[MoonlightRhapsody]

Originally Posted by GrandDuchess

If they had a son, the title would eventually pass to him. Lady Louise will always be a Lady, as it is just a courtesy title for her as the daughter of an Earl.

Peerages only pass in male lines I think, and I'm guessing that the Wessex title is not a title for life (meaning when the holder of the peerage dies, the peerage also dies), but I don't know how it will work then - because normally the title would then go to another male relative of the holder of the Wessex peerage... Very confusing, I think we could use an expert here!

I know that Queen Elizabeth II bestowed that title on Prince Edward upon his marriage. Now, when he passes on, wouldn't the title revert back to the Crown? His father, the Duke, has said that his title will pass on to Edward when he dies, but I hear that the title will revert back to the Crown then the monarch (either his mother, his brother, or maybe even his nephew!) would give the title to Edward?

Anyway, nice little side comment about titles, I'm glad that Alexandra of Denmark (Prince Joachim's ex-wife, not the cousin) has been bestowed her own title of Countess. I'm still not clear if she is now a princess in her own right; it seems like it because I would think that since she's divorced from Prince Joachim, Queen Margarethe was under no obligation to let Alexandra continue to be a member of the Royal Family and/or retain her title. So I would think that she was made a princess in her own right and that her title of Her Highness is completely separate from her former title of Her Royal Highness.

[Next Star]

Originally Posted by MoonlightRhapsody

I know that Queen Elizabeth II bestowed that title on Prince Edward upon his marriage. Now, when he passes on, wouldn't the title revert back to the Crown? His father, the Duke, has said that his title will pass on to Edward when he dies, but I hear that the title will revert back to the Crown then the monarch (either his mother, his brother, or maybe even his nephew!) would give the title to Edward?

Anyway, nice little side comment about titles, I'm glad that Alexandra of Denmark (Prince Joachim's ex-wife, not the cousin) has been bestowed her own title of Countess. I'm still not clear if she is now a princess in her own right; it seems like it because I would think that since she's divorced from Prince Joachim, Queen Margarethe was under no obligation to let Alexandra continue to be a member of the Royal Family and/or retain her title. So I would think that she was made a princess in her own right and that her title of Her Highness is completely separate from her former title of Her Royal Highness.

The then Princess Alexandra of Denmark was not born a princess but was still styled a princess by the queen.She was given the title of countess after her divorce to Prince Joachim of Denmark along with the title princess before she had remarried.She lost her right to use the princess title and now she using her countess title by the way that title is non hereditary meaning if the countess has any children in future the title will not pass on with them this countess title will become extinct upon her death.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by GrandDuchess

If they had a son, the title would eventually pass to him. Lady Louise will always be a Lady, as it is just a courtesy title for her as the daughter of an Earl.

Peerages only pass in male lines I think, and I'm guessing that the Wessex title is not a title for life (meaning when the holder of the peerage dies, the peerage also dies), but I don't know how it will work then - because normally the title would then go to another male relative of the holder of the Wessex peerage... Very confusing, I think we could use an expert here!

Each Peerage has its own Letters Patent which details how the peerage can be passed on, or not. Most peerages follow in the male line, some have Letters Patent which stipulate it can pass through a female line (the best example here is Lord Mountbatten: his Earldom of Burma passed to his eldest daughter so she became Countess Mountbatten of Burma.)

As to what the Letters Patent say about the Earldom of Wessex, I have no idea. Perhaps with Royal peerages they make it up as they go along. Lady Louise (Wessex) is by all rights a Princess and HRH. There have been no Letters Patent denying her this rightful style and title as far as I know, just an announcement saying "she will be known as.." (sound familiar?).

Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh in due course, and not Charles as the eldest son, because Edinburgh is a Royal Dukedom, and the "rules" regarding this dignity appear to be very flexible!
.

[selrahc4]

Originally Posted by Warren

As to what the Letters Patent say about the Earldom of Wessex, I have no idea. .

The title passes to males only as stated in the Letters Patent: "heirs male of his body lawfully begotten"

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/sea...e&PageNumber=2

[selrahc4]

Originally Posted by Warren

Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh in due course, and not Charles as the eldest son, because Edinburgh is a Royal Dukedom, and the "rules" regarding this dignity appear to be very flexible!
.

Prince Charles is the heir to the title Duke of Edinburgh. If he out-lives his father, he (Charles) will become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh of the current creation of that title. There are permutations whereby Prince Edward could inherit the title. But, the most likely scenario is that at sometime the holder will become Sovereign at which time the title merges with the crown and a new creation can be made.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by selrahc4

Prince Charles is the heir to the title Duke of Edinburgh. If he out-lives his father, he (Charles) will become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh of the current creation of that title. There are permutations whereby Prince Edward could inherit the title. But, the most likely scenario is that at sometime the holder will become Sovereign at which time the title merges with the crown and a new creation can be made.

Thanks for clearing this up selrahc4. I have seen on ERMB discussion about the "transfer" of the Dukedom of Edinburgh to Prince Edward, and the various possible scenarios. Like much of the esoterics within the House of Windsor, nothing is certain!

As the Wessex Letters Patent restrict the dignity to the male line it seems likely that Prince Edward will be the first and last Earl of Wessex in the current creation of this Royal title. Lady Louise is denied again!
.

[petritheturtle]

...a royal were to marry a normal citizen. Say if a prince marries a woman does she become a princess? And how does one achieve the status of Count? (ie the Count of Monte Cristo etc.)

[Von Schlesian]

Generally the elligibility of the future wives of Princes/Princesses are determained by the Monarch/Consort. It differs on the Monarchy, and certainly whether the Monarchy is still a ruling dynasty, or a former one.

As far as the title "Count", it is a title present in the Peerage (and in some cases, the Royal families), of certain countries eg: The Imperial German house of Hohenzollern contains many Princes, Grafs (Counts), Barons etc. To explain the titles system of the whole world would be a monumental task, but if perhaps you're more specific about the countries you're interested in, then a more consice answer can be given.

[petritheturtle]

The French Monarchy, the monegasque in particular. If Princess Caroline had married a normal man, then would he become a Prince? As for the question of becoming a count, I am inquiring about the same monarchies. What does the title of Count signify? Also, since Princess Caroline never gave her children titles, does that mean that they can never attain them? How would they go about acquiring their titles if they felt the need?

[Reina]

You could always buy one (a title of course)

[petritheturtle]

Originally Posted by Reina

You could always buy one (a title of course)

Can that title be awarded aswell?

[petritheturtle]

Downs Monaco even use the term Count? Or Comte?

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by petritheturtle

Downs Monaco even use the term Count? Or Comte?

I think that among his 20 or so titles, Rainier had a or several title of Count. Someone more expert than me will answer, I'm certain.

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by petritheturtle

Can that title be awarded aswell?

I am totally ignorant when it comes to Monaco, but I know that in France you can buy aristocratic titles. Basically, you buy "letters of nobility" that prove you have the right to use a title and your kids after you. But, contrary to Germany where titles are part of the name and appear on the passport, titles are not recognized by the French republic. So you can buy the title of Count of Monte Cristo (if it is to sell), but you can only use it to impress in society, not officially.
The kings of France used to award Dukedom to their mistress, so I guess Monarch can award a County, which is a lesser title. I know the Queen of UK can, as she created her son Edward Count of Wessex.

[Von Schlesian]

Historically the title of Count was someone who was the head of a "County" (an area of land within a Kingdom/Principality etc where an individual had been appointed as the Monarchs' representative. They rank above Knights and Barons, but below a Marquis, Duke or Prince. That is the most simple explaination. The title of Count is generally European, however I'm not educated enough on the Monarchies of the Middle East and Asia to speak for them.

Generally if a Princess married a commoner, they would not recieve the title of "Prince", however, it does depend on the position of the Princess, and the Monarch. Depending on the Monarchy, it depends on the power exercisable by the monarch. I cannot give you an example regarding France (or more accurately, the French Royal Houses).

[Josefine]

Originally Posted by petritheturtle

...a royal were to marry a normal citizen. Say if a prince marries a woman does she become a princess? And how does one achieve the status of Count? (ie the Count of Monte Cristo etc.)

We got several examples that "a normal citizen" gets her own title princess or she uses her husbands title.
there are members on this board that can tell us about the differnce a princess in her own right and use her husbands title

[LadyK]

Most of our Crown Princesses were commoners- actually, only one of them was not. Crown Princess Mathilde of Belgium was a member of the Belgian nobility prior to her marriage.

All the monarchies in the world (at least as far as I know) require that royals, (or at least the heir) are required to ask the government's permission and/or the permission of the king/queen prior to marrying anyone. If they do not, or if that permission is denied, then that royal would lose their titles, right to succession, and possibly their government-provided allowances.

Crown Princess Mette-Marit was a single mother with a past when she fell in love with Crown Prince Haakon of Norway. After long, long debates, both in the press and in the government, the Norwegian government decided to allow the marriage. Her past has now mostly been overlooked (it's there, but no one cares). At least with me, that Haakon fought for Mette-Marit and for their love just makes me like them more.

Crown Princess Letizia was Doña Letizia Ortiz Roscasolano, a television journalist in Madrid prior to her marriage, and a divorcee. As Spain is a Catholic monarchy which has had a traditionally very conservative royal family, this was considered a major deal...although Felipe's ex-girlfriends included lingere models......The king and queen threw their support behind the couple, and the government approved the marriage, and now Letizia is one of the most popular royal ladies in the world.

Crown Princess Mary of Denmark was Miss Mary Donaldson, an Australian who worked in a real estate office and then at Microsoft prior to her marriage. After meeting her future husband in a Sydney, Australia bar during the Olympics, and overcoming his mother's initial doubts, the Danish government easily passed the motion to allow Miss Donaldson to marry the Crown Prince, and also awarded her Danish citizenry. Crown Princess Mary is now wildly popular and considered to be a multi-million dollar asset to Denmark.

Crown Princess Máxima of the Netherlands, neé Mámima Zorreguieta Cerruti, was an Argentinian financier who was working in New York City's financial district when she met Crown Prince Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands at a dinner party. Her father was the agricultural minister under Jorge Videla. During Videla's governing, Argentina was the scene of massive human-rights abuses and state-sponsered violence (here's a link about it). Although there is no proof that her father ever was a part of these things, he was still a part of Videla's government. Debate raged for months about what to do. WA was determined to marry Máxima, and I believe that he even threatened to renounce his rights to sucession if he was not allowed to marry her. Finally, Máxima was allowed to marry Willem-Alexander, but it was decided that her father would not be allowed to attend the wedding, and her mother decided to abstain as well (the song "Stand by your man" plays in my head...). This was undoubtedly difficult for Máxima, and she cried for them during her wedding, but her love won out. Máxima and Willem-Alexander are now the parents of three beautiful girls, and Máxima is very popular, particularly in the Netherlands.

________________________________________________________________

Originally Posted by Josefine

We got several examples that "a normal citizen" gets her own title princess or she uses her husbands title.
there are members on this board that can tell us about the differnce a princess in her own right and use her husbands title

I think I have addressed the first part of Josefine's post in the above part of my message, but now I'll address the issue of princess in her own right vs. a princess who just uses her husband's title.

I don't remember many princesses who were solely granted their own title without using her husband's title as well.

Crown Princess Mathilde of Belgium was given the title of Princess Mathilde of Belgium, a title given to her by the king, on her wedding day. This title means that, no matter what happens, if she became divorced, widowed, or whatever, that she will always be Princess Mathilde of Belgium. However, since her husband's titles of Crown Prince and Duke of Brabant are above her title of Princess, she is commonly addressed by his titles.

Royals are generally addressed by the highest title they posess- such as the Prince of Wales, who is also a Prince of England and Scotland, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothsay, and several other titles I don't remember, but is always addressed as Prince of Wales.

Crown Princess Máxima of the Netherlands was also created as Princess of the Netherlands in her own right. Again, that means that the title is hers and hers alone. Since she is the wife of the Crown Prince, out of respect she is addressed as Crown Princess Máxima (there is a thread about Máxima's titles in the Dutch Royal Family section, to discuss the finer points of her styling because hers might be more complicated).

As far as I know, they are the only ones created as Princess in their own right.

Women who use their husband's titles:

Most royal women use their husband's titles, unless the women already posess titles that supercede their husbands'. All the Queen Consorts only receive the title because of their husband- Queen Sonja, Queen Sofia, Queen Silvia, Queen Paola, Queen Rania, Empress Michiko, and others, for example.
Also, some royal women outrank their husbands, so the husbands may be given titles that are appropriate but which do not outrank their wives. Examples of these women are
Queen Elizabeth II of England---husband: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands--- husband: the late Prince Claus of the Netherlands
Queen Margrethe II of Denmark---husband: Prince Henrik, the Prince Consort
Infanta Elena of Spain---husband: Don Jaime de Marichalar, Duke of Lugo
Infanta Cristina of Spain---husband: Don Iñaki Undagarín, Duke of Palma de Mallorca

Princesses Mabel, Anita, and Aimee of the Netherlands are given the title of Princess as a courtesy, since their husbands are princes. Since the government never granted permission for them to wed their husbands-Princes Friso, Pieter-Christiaan, and Floris, respectively- their husbands lost their position in the royal house and the style of "his royal highness".

I hope that that explanation is clearer than mud...

[Lakshmi]

Originally Posted by LadyK

Princesses Mabel, Anita, and Aimee of the Netherlands are given the title of Princess as a courtesy, since their husbands are princes. Since the government never granted permission for them to wed their husbands-Princes Friso, Pieter-Christiaan, and Floris, respectively- their husbands lost their position in the royal house and the style of "his royal highness".

I hope that that explanation is clearer than mud...

I always thought princess' titles for Mabel or Anita are not just courtesy. They married princes anyway, so as wives they should have title automatically, unless we have so called morganatic marriage.
Even if government does not approve the marriage and their husbands are not in line of succession anymore, aren't their wives noble anyway.

[LadyK]

Originally Posted by Lakshmi

I always thought princess' titles for Mabel or Anita are not just courtesy. They married princes anyway, so as wives they should have title automatically, unless we have so called morganatic marriage.
Even if government does not approve the marriage and their husbands are not in line of succession anymore, aren't their wives noble anyway.

Nope. Their wives, and the princes themselves, are just commoners with uncommon parents. Because it'd be weird to call them Prince Friso and Mrs. Mabel von Oranje, they are called Prince and Princess. If Mabel, Anita, or Aimee were to divorce, they would not be allowed to use any sort of royal title.

Mabel and Friso did not receive permission because of Mabel's past (which was just too much for the Dutch government) and the disclosure/lack of disclosure. (see their marriage thread for more information).
Pieter-Christiaan and Floris did not bother to petition for permission for their marriages because the unlikelyness that either of them would inherit the throne. At the time of their marriages, Willem-Alexander, the Crown Prince (PC and Floris's cousin); Constantijn, the youngest son of the Queen; and Maurits and Bernhard Jr., PC and Floris's older brothers, were all married with children.

All three women have their own lives and jobs, and have limited royal activities.

[GrandDuchessOlga]

Wow! come to think about it Mary was actually the only commoner who passed the test immediately. I think it´s great that 3 crown princesses has passed even though they were not accepted at first and wouldn´t have been 50 years ago (look at Wallis Simpson). It shows the world is not so stiff and conservative anymore.