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  #81  
Old 05-09-2005, 12:22 AM
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Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by selrahc4
Prince Charles is the heir to the title Duke of Edinburgh. If he out-lives his father, he (Charles) will become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh of the current creation of that title. There are permutations whereby Prince Edward could inherit the title. But, the most likely scenario is that at sometime the holder will become Sovereign at which time the title merges with the crown and a new creation can be made.
Thanks for clearing this up selrahc4. I have seen on ERMB discussion about the "transfer" of the Dukedom of Edinburgh to Prince Edward, and the various possible scenarios. Like much of the esoterics within the House of Windsor, nothing is certain!

As the Wessex Letters Patent restrict the dignity to the male line it seems likely that Prince Edward will be the first and last Earl of Wessex in the current creation of this Royal title. Lady Louise is denied again!
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  #82  
Old 06-04-2005, 07:25 PM
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Wow..great discussion on here.

In Britain, when the son of a monarch is married, or in some cases comes of age, he is given a secondary title, usually Duke of ______ to add behind the Prince. There are a select handful of dukedoms that are solely used by the princes of the blood royal.

When he marries as Claire and others accurately point out, his assumes the rank of princess but is called by his secondary title.

Andrew, Duke of York.....when he married Sarah her official title was HRH Sarah, Duchess of York.

Diana -Americans always get this wrong - she was never an HRH except during the period of her marriage. When she divorced she lost the HRH status - AUTOMATICALLY! This has nothing to do how the queen felt about her.

Her correct title once and for all while she was alive and married was HRH Diana Princess of Wales.

Anne was born a princess and given the title Princess Royal as recognition for her work. That is her official title.

Edward did not want a dukedom, but when Prince Philip dies, the Queen, or Charles if he is King, will give him the title Duke of Edinburgh...Sofia will then be known as HRH Sofia Duchess of Edinburgh.

Titles in the English Royal family follow the grade of peers for the most part. Born a prince, made a duke and then usually another title Earl or Baron.

Prince George had two sons, Edward and Michael. Edward the oldest is now the Duke of Kent - and has his father's other titles kept with him - Earl of St. Andrews and Baron Downpatrick - his oldest son and grandson use these as courtsey titles...this does NOT make them peers however.

Prince Michael only has the title of Prince, which is why, as Claire accurately points out his wife is known as HRH Princess Michael of Kent.

Titles used to be a big concern in the 19th and early 20th century. The highest level was HIRH - Her Imperial and Royal Highness - Grand Duchess Elizabeth (Ellen) of Russia married to one of Prince Philip's Greek uncles insisted on being addressed by her combined Russian and Greek titles - much to the amusement of her Greek inlaws.

Now comes the fun part......when you are born a princess and then marry a prince, you keep the title princess in front of your name and then assume the country or region of your husband...Princess Caroline of Hanover....Before she was Queen, Princess Sofia - Princess of Asturias. Princess Ingrid of Sweden, when she married Prince William became Princess Ingred of Denmark.

Also, HRH Princess Josephine Charlotte of Belgium picked up the title HGDH Princess of Luxembourg when she married so she was both HRH and HGDH.

Hope this helps.
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  #83  
Old 06-04-2005, 07:31 PM
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Not quite a question, but I am noticing more and more frequently the Prince of Wales title being diminished in its usage to Prince Charles. More and more frequently I am seeing the Duke of Cornwall title in articles and photo references to Prince Charles.

I guess this is an attempt to connect him to Camilla and emphasize the importance of this title, and that Camilla does not go by Princess of Wales (even though she could). Has anyone else noticed this?
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  #84  
Old 06-04-2005, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by His Lordship
Princess Ingrid of Sweden, when she married Prince William became Princess Ingred of Denmark.
Princess Ingrid of Sweden married Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark, and became Crown Princess Ingrid of Denmark.
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  #85  
Old 06-04-2005, 08:07 PM
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I agree with both moderators....although I spelled Ingrid wrong..thank you Norwegianne for correcting me.

I agree Alexandria, legally Camilla has the right to use ALL of Charles's titles...and yes, tit seems the Prince of Wales one is being used less.

But then again, depending on where Charles and Camilla have official engagements, the proper title is used. When in Scotland they are the Duke and Duchess of Rothesay and are noted as such in articles and mentions.

When in Chesire, the are known as the Earl and Countess of Chester.

When in Cornwall, Charles is known by that title.

The Court Circular refers to them this way as well depending on where the official engagements are geographically speaking.

I really enjoy these forums by the way. Thanks to you both.
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  #86  
Old 06-05-2005, 01:25 AM
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Luxembourg Style

Quote:
Originally Posted by His Lordship
Also, HRH Princess Josephine Charlotte of Belgium picked up the title HGDH Princess of Luxembourg when she married so she was both HRH and HGDH.
Prior to the Luxembourg House becoming "Royal", the Grand Duke and Hereditary Grand Duke or Duchess bore the style of Royal Highness, while other members of the family were Grand Ducal Highness.

After HRH Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg married HRH Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma in 1919 all their children were born Royal Highnesses.

In this manner the Grand Ducal family raised themselves to Royal status.

The last person to use the Grand Ducal Highness style would have been Princess Hilda, who died in 1979. She was one of the five sisters of Charlotte, their father being Grand Duke Guillaume IV. Hilda was HGDH until her marriage in 1930 to the 10th Prince of Schwarzenberg.
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  #87  
Old 06-05-2005, 04:15 AM
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hmmm, odd/interesting considering the fact that the grand ducal house nixed the bourbon-parma from their names and in some cases, i think, their titles.
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  #88  
Old 06-05-2005, 07:54 AM
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Luxembourg & Bourbon-Parma

Quote:
Originally Posted by msfroyste
hmmm, odd/interesting considering the fact that the Grand Ducal House nixed the Bourbon-Parma from their names and in some cases, I think, their titles.
Yes, it caused some comment at the time. Up until 1986 members of the family bore the title of Prince or Princess of Luxembourg, Bourbon-Parma and Nassau, Royal Highness.

In 1986 the Bourbon-Parma heritage was cast aside, I guess to reinforce the traditional links with both Luxembourg (the State) and Nassau (the House).

No different from the British ditching Saxe-Coburg and Gotha in favour of Windsor, or the Belgians use of "of Belgium" without even mentioning the House name (again, Saxe-Coburg and Gotha).

These are political and dynastic decisions, and apart from the change to "House of Windsor" in 1917, little discussed in public.

By the way, Juliana of The Netherlands was born a Princess of Orange-Nassau, Duchess of Mecklenburg, and her four daughters are Princesses of Orange-Nassau, Princesses of Lippe-Biesterfeld.
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  #89  
Old 06-05-2005, 10:55 AM
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Thank you for your information Warren. That clears up my confusion regarding Luxembourg and their titles.
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  #90  
Old 06-05-2005, 07:28 PM
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There was something that a cousin with the title of Borbon-Parma had done that was really bad, but I forget what. So Jean nixed the name. But now Henri has put it back in his title.
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  #91  
Old 06-06-2005, 05:38 AM
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it was about henri wanting to marry mt. the head of the house of bourbon-parma didn't approve, as henri's grandfather, prince felix, was a "minor" prince from the house, thus his decendants needed approval from the head of the house of bourbon-parma to marry as well, and they have/had rules for equal marriages then. he didn't approve, and in a move to "get even" gd jean dropped the bourbon-parma from their names/titles, a perverbal slap-in-the-face to his cousin. that's what is publically known;who knows, perhaps there were some other things that fed into his reasoning.
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  #92  
Old 06-07-2005, 02:03 AM
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i have a question......why we call Princess Alexandra "princess". why not Princess Joachim?
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  #93  
Old 06-07-2005, 02:42 AM
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Because in recent years the monarchs in Scandinavia, at least, have given the girls who married princes, their own title. At least if they were directly in line to the throne. Mette-Marit was made HRH the Crown Princess by King Harald at the wedding, and I think a similar case was made for Mary and Alexandra. I'm not familiar with the Netherlands, but I think Maxima also has it like that, and maybe her sisters-in-law? Correct me if I'm wrong.


I say recent years, because I know that in Denmark there was an American (Eleanor Green) who married Prince Viggo, and she was always known as Princess Viggo. I do, however, think it has something to do with how close the royal in questions are to the throne.

Of course, Denmark, and Sweden, has also had a tradition that when the princes chooses a bride among the people of the country, or without the King's approval, they are "demoted" to counts. (In Denmark they become Count of Rosenborg, and in Sweden Count Bernadotte, unless I'm getting it all wrong.) Fairly unlikely that that tradition continues to exist, although, it is a nice way to keep the royal family limited.
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  #94  
Old 06-07-2005, 04:05 AM
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Luxembourg dumps B-P

Quote:
Originally Posted by msfroyste
it was about Henri wanting to marry Maria Theresa; the Head of the House of Bourbon-Parma didn't approv and in a move to "get even" Grand Duke Jean dropped the Bourbon-Parma from their names/titles
There may be an element of truth to this, but Henri married Maria Teresa in 1981, and the Bourbon-Parma titles were dropped five years later in 1986; so perhaps it was a very delayed backhander.

The Head of the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma was (and is) Prince Carlos Hugo, who was previously married to Princess Irene of The Netherlands. Coincidentally they were divorced the same year as Henri and MT married.

Carlos Hugo has four children. The best known is Princess Marguerita, who is currently divorcing her husband of 4 years Edwin de Roy van Zuydewijn, after they caused acute embarassment to Queen Beatrix with some outrageous allegations.

Perhaps Jean, Henri and Maria Teresa have had the last laugh.
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  #95  
Old 06-07-2005, 04:32 AM
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Sweden: close to extinction

Quote:
Originally Posted by norwegianne
Denmark, and Sweden, has also had a tradition that when the princes chooses a bride among the people of the country, or without the King's approval, they are "demoted" to counts. (In Denmark they become Count of Rosenborg, and in Sweden Count Bernadotte.) Fairly unlikely that that tradition continues to exist, although, it is a nice way to keep the royal family limited.
The Swedish Royal House came close to a "demoting" itself out of existence in the male line with its strict adherence to this tradition.

Of the sons of King Oscar II, Prince Oscar had to renounce his rights of succession on his marriage; Prince Carl's only son renounced; Prince Eugen was unmarried and only Prince Gustaf was left in line.

Prince Gustaf became King and had three sons: Gustaf Adolf, who became King; Prince Wilhelm who had one son, who renounced, and Prince Erik who was mentally disabled.

King Gustaf VI Adolf had 4 sons: Prince Sigvard, who renounced; Prince Carl Johan who renounced; Prince Bertil and Prince Gustaf Adolf, who was killed in a flying accident in 1947.

After Prince Gustaf Adolf's death there were just TWO Princes left in the male line of succession: Bertil, who could not marry the love of his life Lilian Craig because he too would have had to renounce his rights, and the current King, who was only nine months old when his father died.

So because of the strict application of the very rigid "equal marriage" rules the continued existence of the Bernadotte Dynasty hung by a thread.
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  #96  
Old 06-07-2005, 05:34 AM
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perhaps carlos hugo was pissed b/c someone close to him was getting happily married and he was being ditched, thus he decided to take it out on everyone around him. had it been me, i would've given him a good kick in the pants and told him to get over himself. perhaps that's what jean basically did (or could've acutally done, don't know, i wasn't there) when he nixed the bourbon-parma name/titles.
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  #97  
Old 06-08-2005, 11:48 AM
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thanks norwegianne. it seems the GB royalty always are very rigid about the titles.
but i don't know there were so many renunciation in continental royal family cos of their marriage!
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  #98  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:00 PM
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i have a question......why we call Princess Alexandra "princess". why not Princess Joachim?
If Prince Joachim had been a prince of the United Kingdom and hadn't been created a duke or earl when he married, she would have been known as Princess Joachim. However, in Denmark (and in the Netherlands) they do things differently and the wife of a prince is created princess with her own name.
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  #99  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:04 PM
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thanks norwegianne. it seems the GB royalty always are very rigid about the titles.
but i don't know there were so many renunciation in continental royal family cos of their marriage!
Yes, it's sort of interesting that the British royal family is very hot on protocol but much more relaxed about the people who can become royal than some of the more "informal" monarchies.
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  #100  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
If Prince Joachim had been a prince of the United Kingdom and hadn't been created a duke or earl when he married, she would have been known as Princess Joachim.
thank you Elspeth. i guess that's what's gonna happen to William's wife if he marries soon enough
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