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  #661  
Old 07-03-2012, 11:38 PM
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One other reason for royal and noble brides to be "of Denmark" and "of Teck" were probably the fact that they didn't have surnames in the way Wallis Simpson or the Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon had. If the latter hadn't had a "proper" surname she would probably have been known as queen Elizabeth of Strathmore and Kinghorne after her father's title earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne, in a similar fashion as queen Caroline of Ansbach, wife of king George II. She belonged to the house of Hohenzollern by birth, but has "of Ansbach" after her father's principality of Ansbach.

It's true that some of the English princes and princesses had "of X" after their birthplace, for example John of Gaunt, being born in Ghent and king Henry IV of England was known as Henry of Bolingbroke after his birthplace the Bolingbroke Castle, or Joan of Acre, daughter of king Edward I of England, after her birthplace of Acre in the Holy Land. One reason for those "placenames" was probably the fact that there could be several members of the same family (grandfathers, fathers, sons, brothers, nephews and cousins) who were or had been prince John or prince Henry at the same time, so to be able to differentiate between the prince Henry's there was a need to add something to their name while they were children, before they got a noble title such as earl or duke of something.
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  #662  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:25 AM
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The main reason for the 'of xxx' was simply to identify which particular prince/princess was being referred to.

Queen Victoria for instance had at least three granddaughters named Victoria so to tell them apart the 'of Prussia', 'of Wales' 'of Hesse' etc was used.

It is simply a way of telling one from the other.
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  #663  
Old 07-04-2012, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Queen Victoria for instance had at least three granddaughters named Victoria so to tell them apart the 'of Prussia', 'of Wales' 'of Hesse' etc was used.
Yes, those names was used to tell the princess apart by the general public, but not by their extended family who had their own nicknames for its members. Victoria of Prussia was known as Moretta or Young Vicky (her mother Victoria was known as Vicky), Victoria of Wales was called Toria and Victoria Eugenie of Battenberg was called Ena, Victoria Melita of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha had the nickname Ducky. I can't find a nickname for Victoria of Hesse, but her sisters had the nicknames Ella, Alicky (or Sunny) and May. You can find more royal nicknames here: Nicknames of German princesses ?
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  #664  
Old 07-09-2012, 05:01 PM
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HM- his/her majesty- usually referring to a king or Queen

HIM- the title of an emperor? Like Akihito of japan?

HIH is for whom? And is the title HSH mostly for German royalty?
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  #665  
Old 07-09-2012, 05:30 PM
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HIM usually stands for His/Her Imperial Majesty - style of an Emperor or Empress.
HM stands for His/Her Majesty - style of a King or Queen.
Usually, Emperors, Empresses, Kings and Queens are all addressed in the same manner HM (His/Her Majesty),

HIH stands for His/Her Imperial Highness - usually, style of children of an Emperor or Empress.
HRH stands for His/Her Royal Highness - usually, style of children of a King/Queen, as well as reigning Grand Dukes (such as Grand Duke Henri of Luxembourg).
HSH usually stands for His/Her Serene Highness - style of minor royalty (mediatised princes), as well as reining princely Sovereigns (such as Albert of Monaco).
HIllH usually stands for His/Her Illustrious Highness - style of mediatised princely counts and countesses.
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  #666  
Old 07-09-2012, 06:04 PM
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I've never heard of the latter, Artemisia, due to my own lack of knowledge. Are there any mediatised royalty/nobility in existence today with that style of Illustrious Highness?
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  #667  
Old 07-09-2012, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Baroness of Books View Post
I've never heard of the latter, Artemisia, due to my own lack of knowledge. Are there any mediatised royalty/nobility in existence today with that style?
The style is not at all often used, so unless you emerge into the world of styles and titles, you won't usually encounter it.

Quite a few representatives of German princely houses hold the style HIIH. Among them is His Illustrious Highness Count Jefferson von Pfeil und Klein-Ellguth, husband of Princess Princess Alexandra of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg (herself daughter of Princess Benedikte of Denmark).

Illustrious Highness is basically a translation of middle high German word Erlaucht.
Durchlaucht - a word that derived from Erlaucht - was used to describe Princes of the Holy Roman Empire; it is usually translated as Serene Highness.

The Russian style "Ваше Сиятельство" (literally - Your Illustriousness), used by members of some Russian Princely (but not Imperial) families, is also sometimes translated Your Illustrious Highness, although a more accurate translation in terms of ranking would be Serene Highness.
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  #668  
Old 07-09-2012, 07:12 PM
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Why Monarchs Receive Specific Titles?

I looked through several forums as to where to put this question so I hope I'm in the right place.

Why is Albert a Prince of Monaco but not a King? Same question in regards to the Grand Duke/Duchess of Luxembourg? Are they considered the sovereigns of their respective countries or do they get different titles because of some political machinations centuries ago? Or because when they became leader they didn't feel "royal" enough to get promoted?
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  #669  
Old 07-09-2012, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by COESpiral View Post
Why is Albert a Prince of Monaco but not a King? Same question in regards to the Grand Duke/Duchess of Luxembourg? Are they considered the sovereigns of their respective countries or do they get different titles because of some political machinations centuries ago?
Even though they are not Kings, Prince Albert of Monaco, Grand Duke Henri of Luxembourg and Prince Hans-Adam of Liechtenstein are all Heads of their respective States. A President and an Emperor are also Heads of State, despite having a title other than King.

To put it simply, the difference between the titles usually signified the size of the land and/or the influence the ruler exercised.
Usually, small states like Monaco, Luxembourg and Liechtenstein didn't have weight to be fully independent in their own right and were initially part of larger Empires or vassals to more powerful lords. As such, they obviously had lower titles then their lords. Also, most of the vassals had to receive (at least, initially) their crowns, directly or indirectly, from their overlord, thus legitimising their rule.

Princes of Monaco, for instance, were considered vassals of the French Monarchs. After the Grimaldis purchased the land from the crown of Aragon in 1419, they became rulers of the "Rock of Monaco". When Honore II self-styled himself as "Prince of Monaco" (before that they were just rulers), he knew perfectly well his land would not be able to survive on its own in the big power struggle of Europe. Honore II then sought French protection (chiefly, against Spanish forces) and was received at French court as vassal of the French King. All subsequent Princes of Monaco remained French vassals until the French revolution. After the revolution and until 1814, Monaco remained under direct French rule. In 1814, the Principality was re-established as a sovereign land, but the Congress of Vienna 1815 designated it as a protectorate of Sardinia. A couple of decades later, by the Treaty of Turin 1860, the Sardinian forces pulled out and Monaco and the principality became French protectorate again. Eventually, hoping to finally gain independence for his land, Charles III of Monaco ceded over 95% of Monaco (as it was at the time) to France in return for absolute sovereignty for the Principality, which the French granted by the Franco-Monegasque Treaty of 1861.

Liechtenstein was a "sovereign member state of the Holy Roman Empire"; in effect, the Prince of Liechtenstein was a vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor. However, after the Napoleonic Wars, the principality joined the Confederation of the Rhine as a member (but de facto as a vassal of France). After the confederation was abolished in 1813, Liechtenstein joined the German confederation and became a vassal (or protectorate) of the Austrian Empire) until 1866. After the end of World War I and the dissolution of Austro-Hungarian Empire, the principality argued that since the newly-formed state of Austria didn't consider itself a legal successor of the Empire, then Liechtenstein - as a former vassal of the Holy Roman Empire but not of Austria - was not bound in any shape or form to the newly-formed country .

Similarly, Luxembourg was vassal to Holy Roman Empire, then had personal union of Crowns with the Netherlands.

My own country, Armenia was (for a brief period) an Empire, when Tigran the Great conquered vast territories in Caucasia. He held the title Shanshah (King of Kings), signifying his importance. Once most of the land was lost, Armenian Monarchs reverted to being called just Kings.
The Cilician Kingdom of Armenia, on the other hand, was initially a Principality only marginally bigger than Monaco; however, Prince Levon II added more lands to the Principality and gained more importance during the crusades (Pope Clement III personally wrote to Levon to ask for financial and military assistance, which was granted). As a gratitude, two successive Holy Roman Emperors - Frederick Barbarossa and Herny VI - elevated the princedom's status to a Kingdom.
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  #670  
Old 07-09-2012, 07:18 PM
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My thanks for your very interesting reply!
The historical aspects of these monarchies makes for great reading.
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  #671  
Old 07-09-2012, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
To put it simply, the difference between the titles usually signified the size of the land and/or the influence the ruler exercised.
Yes, it's true that the size of a country denotes what title its ruler has, but there can also be other reasons. Take for example the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, it was a large country in the middle ages but it was only a kingdom for a very short time of its history, when its rulers went back to their pagan beliefs the country was degraded to a Grand Duchy and remained so for as long as the country existed as independent.
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  #672  
Old 07-09-2012, 09:09 PM
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Of course, there were many aspects; I just simplified for better understanding.

As I mentioned somewhere in earlier post, many of the smaller states had to "receive" their crowns from a more powerful lord (Holy Roman Emperor, the Pope, etc).
The Pope was the supreme authority in the Christian world; as the successor of Saint Peter and the Lord's representative on Earth, he could elevate the rulers to Princes or Kings (as happened with Cilician Armenia), or could "downgrade" them to Princes, Grand Dukes or Dukes (as happened with Lithuania).

Another way of punishment was church excommunication, which usually severly diminished the power of the given lord and could result in his eventual removal from power (at least, until the Renaissance period). Among those excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church were several Holy Roman Emperors (Henry IV, Frederick I Barbarossa, Frederick II), French Kings (Philip I, Philip IV, Henry IV - who retaliated by "excommunicating" the Pope, Napoleon), Monarchs of the British Isles (John I of England, Robert the Bruce, James IV of Scotland, Henry VIII of England, Elizabeth I of England), William I of Sicily, Andrew II of Hungary, and others.
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  #673  
Old 07-09-2012, 09:20 PM
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Remember, Western European monarchies are constitutional monarchies. The constitution of the country often specifies the title of the monarch. That could thus be changed only as the constitution of the country could be changed.
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  #674  
Old 07-09-2012, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CSENYC View Post
Remember, Western European monarchies are constitutional monarchies. The constitution of the country often specifies the title of the monarch. That could thus be changed only as the constitution of the country could be changed.
Well, in the Order of Succession of 1810 the title of the king was Med Guds Nåde Sveriges, Götes och Vendes Konung &c. &c. &c., arvinge till Norge, hertig till Schleswig Holstein, Stormarn och Ditmarsen, greve till Oldenburg och Delmenhorst &c. &c., when king Carl Gustaf became king in 1973 he took the title Sveriges konung (king of Sweden) and not Med Guds Nåde Sveriges, Götes och Vendes konung, the title his grandfather had had, and no change of the constitution was needed.
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  #675  
Old 08-02-2012, 12:03 PM
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Meaning & Origin of the Words King and Emperor

Can anyone give me a detailed etymology of the words King and Emperor?
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  #676  
Old 08-02-2012, 12:38 PM
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You may find this link useful: A Glossary of European Noble, Princely, Royal and Imperial Titles
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  #677  
Old 08-03-2012, 09:11 AM
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Read a little something about "Emperor". But what about "King"?
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  #678  
Old 08-03-2012, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by monapublican View Post
Read a little something about "Emperor". But what about "King"?
The word "King" derived from the Anglos-Saxon "Cynnig", which in turn derived from Common Germanic word for a King (ruler) - "kuningaz".
"Kuningaz" was a combination of two words - "kunja" + "ingaz", which meant "someone of the family".

The Anglo-Saxon "cynnig" originated of Old English "cynn" (race or family) + "-inga" suffix". "Cynnig" originally had the meaning of "leader of people", although some argue that a more appropirate translation would be "a descendant of one of a noble birth". It depends on how "cynn" is translated or was interpreted at the time.
Over the time, "Cynnig" evolved into "King".


As for "Emperor", it derives from French "Empereor", which in turn derived from Latin "Imperiator". "Imperiator" was a title conferred upon a victorious commander by his troops. For instance, Pompey was made "Imperator" several times, as was Sulla. Caesar used it permanently and planned to turn it into hereditary title.

"Imperiator" itsefl originated from "imperare" (meaning "to command"), from the combination of "im" + "parare" (to make ready).
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  #679  
Old 08-05-2012, 12:23 PM
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Dumb question but - do Stephanie de Lannoy's siblings all have the title earl/countess in front of their names? I've always thought it was just the eldest that had the title and the rest had sir or lady or it was the oldest male that carried the title.
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  #680  
Old 08-05-2012, 03:55 PM
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Dumb question but - do Stephanie de Lannoy's siblings all have the title earl/countess in front of their names? I've always thought it was just the eldest that had the title and the rest had sir or lady or it was the oldest male that carried the title.
There is a difference between how the children of English/British and Continental aristocracy are titled. In the U.K. only the oldest son have a title while all the children of Continental aristocracy have a title, I think it's true in most, if not all, European countries. There are usually no equivalent titles to the British Lord/Lady in other European languages.
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