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  #481  
Old 05-01-2010, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Catherine Helvin View Post
This is at the discretion of the reigning monarch. For example, shortly before the birth of their first child in 1961, the Queen created Antony Armstrong-Jones the Earl of Snowdon but she didn't give a title to the husbands of Princesses Alexandra or Anne.

She offered their husbands earldoms, but they turned them down. So the offer was there, it was just declined.
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  #482  
Old 05-01-2010, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by michelleq View Post
Has anyone in recent history elevated an HSH to a HRH? The only one that I can think of was from Luxembourg when I believe that a Grand Duchess married a Duke of Parma?

Correct me if I am wrong.

Elevated through marriage or elevated because their family situations changed? Queen Alexandra was born HSH Princess Alexandra and became HRH Princess Alexandra when her father, the future Christian IX, became heir to the throne.
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  #483  
Old 05-02-2010, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by michelleq View Post
Has anyone in recent history elevated an HSH to a HRH? The only one that I can think of was from Luxembourg when I believe that a Grand Duchess married a Duke of Parma?

Correct me if I am wrong.
michelleq late Grand Duchess Charolette of Luxembourg was always style as royal highness it was other members of the family that were styled serne highess and were upgraded royal highness through her marriage to the late Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma.
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  #484  
Old 05-03-2010, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Next Star View Post
... it was other members of the family that were styled serne highess...
Other members of the family were Grand Ducal Highness (HGDH), not Serene Highness (HSH).
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  #485  
Old 09-11-2010, 06:46 PM
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Talking about royal titles I was wondering how the children of Luis Alfonso, Duke of Anjou and Margarita Vargas have been given the titles of Princess and Princes, and the children of the Prince and Princess of Asturias (Spain) are only Infantas?
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  #486  
Old 09-11-2010, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Danishla View Post
Talking about royal titles I was wondering how the children of Luis Alfonso, Duke of Anjou and Margarita Vargas have been given the titles of Princess and Princes, and the children of the Prince and Princess of Asturias (Spain) are only Infantas?

I actually think that both are the same thing but prince/princess is the English and intfante etc is left in the native Spanish.

Infante - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #487  
Old 09-11-2010, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I actually think that both are the same thing but prince/princess is the English and intfante etc is left in the native Spanish.

Infante - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I agree its basically the same, but its also slightly different in that Infante is also used as an hereditary title of nobility.

In Spain, the heir apparent is the only child of the monarch that is accorded the title of "Prince", as in Prince of Asturias. His wife is Princess of Asturias by courtesy, and their children are Infantes of Spain, given the same title as the younger children of the king.

The title of Infante can also be granted by royal decree, and has been given to Carlos de Borbon, Duke of Calabria, who is the king's cousin.

The difference with Louis Alphonse, Duc de Anjou, is that as the first cousin once removed of King Juan Carlos, he does not hold the title of Infante by birth.. he is too far removed from the direct line of the royal family. He is the grandson of Infante Jaime of Spain, and his father was Duc de Anjou and Duke of Cadiz.

The French legitimists believe Louis Alphonse is the legitimate heir and head of the French Royal family, recognizing him as HRH The Duke of Anjou.

His children are therefore titled HRH Princess Eugenie, HRH The Duke of Burgundy and HRH The Duke of Berry. They are styled "Princes" in the French fashion.. but they are not Infantes of Spain.

The Duke of Anjou's eldest son, Prince Louis, Duke of Burgundy, is also recognized as the Dauphin of France.. however, in Spain he is Don Louis de Borbon y Vargas - and his siblings are also titled as "Dons" in Spain.

In fact, the Duke of Anjou does not currently hold any Spanish title. Though his father was Duke of Cadiz in Spain, the Spanish government declared in 1987 that the title would not be hereditary. The reason they gave is that the Cadiz title is traditionally attached to the crown, but it is no secret that King Juan Carlos does not get along very well with Louis Alphonse..

And His title is disputed by the Orleans claimant, Prince Henri Philippe, Count of Paris, Duke of France, who granted the title Duke of Anjou in 2004 to his nephew, Prince Charles-Philippe, eldest son of his brother, the Comte d'Evreux.. with the agreement of King Juan Carlos.

Ironically, both Dukes of Anjou grew up in Spain.

The children of Charles-Philippe, Duc de Anjou, will be known as Princes of Orleans and styled HRH. Since his marriage to the Portugese 11th Duchess of Cadaval, he is also known as "jure uxoris" Duke of Cadaval.
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  #488  
Old 09-11-2010, 11:21 PM
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Dear HM Queen Catherine
Thank you so much for this extraordinary account, I very much enjoyed reading these details. I now have a better appreciation of these families and their ties to both Spain and France.
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  #489  
Old 09-12-2010, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Danishla View Post
Talking about royal titles I was wondering how the children of Luis Alfonso, Duke of Anjou and Margarita Vargas have been given the titles of Princess and Princes, and the children of the Prince and Princess of Asturias (Spain) are only Infantas?
Infante traslate means child of Spain It's like in France the chilren of the french Kings where also not Prince/Prccness of they where fils or fille de France and de grand chidlren petit-fille or petit-fils de France which mens son/daughter or grandson/granddaughter of France.
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  #490  
Old 09-12-2010, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Infante traslate means child of Spain It's like in France the chilren of the french Kings where also not Prince/Prccness of they where fils or fille de France and de grand chidlren petit-fille or petit-fils de France which mens son/daughter or grandson/granddaughter of France.
That is true, Stefan.

Prince Charles-Philippe, Duc de Anjou, (House of Orleans) is also known as a petit-fils de France, which is a traditional French rank, with the style of Royal Highness. He is recognized as the rightful claimant to the French crown by Orleanists.

Prince Louis Alphonse, Duc de Anjou, (House of Bourbon) is not accorded the traditional French rank to my knowledge, even though he is recognized as the rightful claimant by Legitimists.
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  #491  
Old 09-12-2010, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by principessa View Post
I asked me if the correct title of the Danish Queen is translated in German to "Königin von Dänemark" or "Königin zu Dänemark". Can someone help me?

Thank you.

principessa
Königin von Dänemark is the correct German form for Queen of Denmark.

In German, "zu" denotes title to a place and "von" denotes title of a place, which is rather confusing. A Count, for example, can be Graf von Stolberg (Count of Stolberg) or Graf von und zu Stolberg (Count of and to Stolberg)..

"zu" in this form would not apply to regnal titles, i.e. Kings and Queens. So, the Königin von Großbritannien or the Königin von Spanien in the German form are the Queen of Great Britain and the Queen of Spain.

Hope this helps. :)
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  #492  
Old 09-12-2010, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine View Post
"zu" in this form would not apply to regnal titles, i.e. Kings and Queens.
But the Princes of Liechtenstein are Princes von und zu Liechtenstein, and also the Reigning Prince is "Fürst von und zu Liechtenstein"; do you know why?
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  #493  
Old 09-13-2010, 10:49 AM
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But the Princes of Liechtenstein are Princes von und zu Liechtenstein, and also the Reigning Prince is "Fürst von und zu Liechtenstein"; do you know why?
Well.. it is rather complicated and difficult to explain, although I will try.. the Holy Roman Empire and the Germanic nobility threw away the rule book when it came to the orderly progression of noble titles

The term "von" is used with a family-bound title of nobility, such as that of the Queen of Denmark, whose family is the ruling dynasty of the country.

In the case of a King or Queen, the appropriate term is "von" (of). And this usually applies to all titles outside the German/Austrian/Holy Roman empire.

The term "zu" is used to denote an area-bound title, which gives the geographic area of rule, something unique as far as I know, to the Germanic states.

Since a country is a country and not an area, in the German sense, "zu" (to) would not be an appropriate term for regnal titles.

The same applies to princely titles, such as Crown Prince of Denmark, Prince of Asturias or Prince of Wales, which are family-bound titles.

In German, they are Kronprinz von Dänemark, Fürst von Asturias and Fürst von Wales. The first instance is obvious, but the Prince of Asturias and the Prince of Wales could not be "Fürst von und zu Asturias" or "Fürst von und zu Wales", since they don't rule the principality denoted by their titles. Their titles are merely appanages of the respective ruling houses, i.e. the House of Bourbon and the House of Windsor.

Liechtenstein, however, is a Germanic principality which was granted sovereignty under the Holy Roman Empire.

Its reigning prince is "of" Liechtenstein (family) and "to" Liechtenstein (area). He is a prince of the ruling family, as well as ruler of the area.. Hence he is Fürst von und zu Liechtenstein.

It is my understanding that "von und zu" only applies to titles given to nobles of the Germanic states (including Austria) and titles granted by the Holy Roman Empire.

The Prince of Monaco, for example, is appropriately called Fürst von Monaco in German, and not "von und zu Monaco", even though he is a reigning prince of a specific area. His title is not Germanic but French, whereas the Liechtenstein title was granted by the Holy Roman Emperor, Charles VI.

Another example of this is that a German prince could be "of" one place and "to" another - There could be a Prinz Johann, Fürst von Schlewig zu Anhalt or a Prinz Georg, Fürst von Sachsen zu Holstein.

In this case, Prinz Johann is of the House of Schleswig, but ruler to the area of Anhalt -- and Prinz Georg is of the House of Sachsen but ruler to the area of Holstein.

I hope that explains the difference.. like I said, it is very confusing.. and it took me a while to wrap my head around it when my husband (who is German) explained it the first time..
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  #494  
Old 09-13-2010, 11:11 AM
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Great explanation Queen Catherine! Understanding the differences is much clearer now.
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  #495  
Old 09-13-2010, 02:19 PM
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In danish the title for the heirs to the throne is prince/princess til (zu/to) denmark. example HRH Frederik kronprins til Danmark, HRH Joachim prins til danmark.
Those who are not in line for the throne are prince/princess af (von/of) denmark. exampel HRH Mary kronprinsesse af danmark, HRH princess Marie af Danmark.
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  #496  
Old 09-13-2010, 04:07 PM
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Talking about German titles, I cam across the titles of Ysenburg Family; among the branches of that family are the Counts zu Ysenburg und Büdingen in Meerholz, the Princes zu Ysenburg und Büdingen in Wächtersbach and the Princes zu Ysenburg und Büdingen in Büdingen.
As far as I understand from Queen Catherine's previous post, they are Counts and Princes zu Ysenburg and zu Büdingen because the Family once ruled in these territories; but what about the "in Meerholz/in Wächtersbac/in Büdingen" part of the titles?
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  #497  
Old 09-13-2010, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
Talking about German titles, I cam across the titles of Ysenburg Family; among the branches of that family are the Counts zu Ysenburg und Büdingen in Meerholz, the Princes zu Ysenburg und Büdingen in Wächtersbach and the Princes zu Ysenburg und Büdingen in Büdingen.
As far as I understand from Queen Catherine's previous post, they are Counts and Princes zu Ysenburg and zu Büdingen because the Family once ruled in these territories; but what about the "in Meerholz/in Wächtersbac/in Büdingen" part of the titles?
These titleholders are members of the very old aristocratic family of Isenburg (or Ysenburg), whose roots can be traced back to the 10th century. The original countship of Isenburg was divided in 1137 into Isenburg-Isenburg and Isenburg-Limburg-Covern.

Over the centuries, the comital title has been partitioned many times. By 1500 there were only two remaining branches of the family and title - that of Isenburg-Büdingen and Nieder-Isenburg.

The Nieder-Isenburg branch died out in 1664, but the Büdingen branch continued to split.. and by the 19th century there were four branches in the Büdingen line:

Isenburg-Büdingen
Isenburg-Birstein
Isenburg-Meerholz
Isenburg-Wächtersbach

There was also yet another partition of the title - Isenburg-Philippseich. This last one, in addition to I-Büdingen, I-Meerholz and I-Wächtersbach, were incorporated into the Principality of Isenburg in 1806.

There was only one reigning Prince of Isenburg, as the Principality only existed for 8 or 9 years. Eventually the lands were divided between the Grand Duchy of Hessen-Darmstadt and the Electorate of Hessen-Kassel.

So the title of the Counts zu Ysenburg und Büdingen in Meerholz, merely reflect the family name (Isenburg), branch of the family (Büdingen) and place name (Meerholz) they represent.

Likewise for the Princes zu Ysenburg und Büdingen in Wächtersbach (which would be the Isenburg-Büdingen branch in Wächtersbach).. and for the Princes zu Ysenburg und Büdingen in Büdingen (which would be the Isenburg-Büdingen branch in Büdingen).

Remember that after 1664, the only branch that remained of the family were the Isenburg-Büdingen branch, so the present day title holders are all going to be Isenburg-Büdingen (plus the place name).
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  #498  
Old 09-14-2010, 01:06 AM
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Queen Catherine you are very knowledgeable. You really know your history!
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  #499  
Old 09-14-2010, 11:18 AM
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Queen Catherine you are very knowledgeable. You really know your history!
Primarily, I'm a genealogist.. but I was a history major in college
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  #500  
Old 09-15-2010, 05:48 PM
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Queen Catherine, again thank you very much for your explanations!
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