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  #441  
Old 07-25-2009, 02:31 AM
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If a female HRH marries a male HI&RH their children would be HI&RH. Once again, the question of female Heads of non-reigning Houses is extremely hypothetical as female Heads are few and far between. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is the only notable example.

(Crown) Princess Margarita of Romania will in due course become the Head of the Royal House of Romania. She is married but has no children and will be succeeded by her sister Helen's son Nicholas. Nicholas Medforth-Mills, since renamed Nicolae de Romania, will become HRH Prince of Romania on his 25th birthday (next year) or on the death of King Michael, whichever comes first.

A couple of more general examples of "marrying up":

• The (now) HSH Hereditary Princess Caroline of Monaco became HRH The Princess of Hanover on her marriage to Prince Ernst August. If she succeeds Prince Albert as Sovereign Princess then Monaco will have a Royal House for the life of her reign. What style she would give the next Hereditary Prince is anyone's guess but it would probably be HSH Prince Andrea and Monaco would revert to a Princely House on his accession.

• When Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg married HRH Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma the Grand Ducal House was raised to royal rank in that all of their children were born Royal Highnesses rather than Grand Ducal Highnesses (the Hereditary Grand Duke would have been a Royal Highness in any case).

and a dynastic "what if?" that never eventuated...

• HRH Princess Astrid of Belgium married HI&RH Archduke Lorenz of Austria-Este, now Head of the Ducal House of Modena. With the revamped Belgian succession law she jumped a place to be behind her brother Philippe and before her younger brother Laurent. If Philippe had remained unmarried (or childless, or left no surviving issue) she would likely have become the first Belgian Sovereign Queen. Her eldest son Amedeo, HI&RH Archduke of Austria-Este, Prince of Hungary and Bohemia and HRH Prince of Belgium, would in due course have inherited the Belgian crown. In effect (though not in name) a scion of the Habsburg Dynasty would have gained a Kingdom more than a century after the family had lost an Empire, and the Habsburgs would again rule over their ancestral lands that once formed part of the Duchy of Burgundy and later the Austrian Netherlands.
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  #442  
Old 07-25-2009, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
<...>
and a dynastic "what if?" that never eventuated...

• HRH Princess Astrid of Belgium married HI&RH Archduke Lorenz of Austria-Este, now Head of the Ducal House of Modena. With the revamped Belgian succession law she jumped a place to be behind her brother Philippe and before her younger brother Laurent. If Philippe had remained unmarried (or childless, or left no surviving issue) she would likely have become the first Belgian Sovereign Queen. Her eldest son Amedeo, HI&RH Archduke of Austria-Este, Prince of Hungary and Bohemia and HRH Prince of Belgium, would in due course have inherited the Belgian crown. In effect (though not in name) a scion of the Habsburg Dynasty would have gained a Kingdom more than a century after the family had lost an Empire, and the Habsburgs would again rule over their ancestral lands that once formed part of the Duchy of Burgundy and later the Austrian Netherlands.

If this scenario were to come true, wouldn't the Belgian Royal Family become Belgian Imperial Family, at least for the time of Astrid's Reign?
The Imperial style would presumably outrank the Royal one. Would she be known as 'Empress' Astrid and what style and title would her husband have? As far as I understand, their children would be HI&RH in any case.
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  #443  
Old 07-25-2009, 10:16 AM
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I don't think...she would be the Reigning Queen of the Belgians, why to elevate her title to an imperial one?
I guess this is the same of Maria Theresia of Austria: she was Queen of Hungary, not Empress of Hungary, although she had married the Holy Roman Emperor...
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  #444  
Old 07-25-2009, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Marsel View Post
If this scenario were to come true, wouldn't the Belgian Royal Family become Belgian Imperial Family, at least for the time of Astrid's Reign?
The Imperial style would presumably outrank the Royal one. Would she be known as 'Empress' Astrid and what style and title would her husband have? As far as I understand, their children would be HI&RH in any case.
Why would it change to Belgian Imperial and not Royal?
And why would Astrid become Empress and not just Queen?

I must admit, I would love a belgian monarchy ruled by Queen Astrid.
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  #445  
Old 07-25-2009, 10:35 AM
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Thank you for your responses, MAfan and lumutqueen.
I agree it is unlikely Astrid would be an Empress (her husband would have to be an Emperor for that to happen), however I do believe that the Reigning Family of Belgium would be an Imperial, not Royal one, at least for the time of her (hypothetical) reign.

In my understanding, the situation would be similar to that of Princess Caroline of Monaco upon her (possible) accession to the Throne of Monaco, when the Princely Family of Monaco will become Royal Family of Monaco (for the duration of Caroline's Reign) because of Caroline's marriage to HRH The Prince of Hannover.
Warren has explained the situation with Princess Caroline in his post.

lumutqueen, I also love the idea of Queen Astrid: she would have been a wonderful Monarch, in my opinion.
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  #446  
Old 07-25-2009, 10:43 AM
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I still do not understand how a royal family becomes and imperial one? Or a princely family becomes a royal one?
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  #447  
Old 07-25-2009, 11:04 AM
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I understand, Marsel; but the two cases are different:

Caroline was a Serene Highness, who has become a Royal Highness, and who will remain a Royal Highness because this status is superior then the one (Serene Highness) of the Prince of Monaco;

Astrid was a Royal Highness who has become a Imperial and Royal Highness, but if Queen she would be a Royal Majesty, a style superior then a Imperial and Royal Highness: whichever Majesty is superior then all the Highnesses.

And more, the imperial titles of Lorenz, and of Astrid since she is his wife, are only courtesy titles, not official titles. This is the same case, for example, of Archduke Carl Christian, whose is a courtesy title, and his wife Marie Astris, who has the courtesy title of Archduchess because she is his wife, but she is officially styled HRH Princess Marie Astrid of Luxembourg, not HI&RH Archduchess Marie Astrid of Austria.
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  #448  
Old 07-25-2009, 11:22 AM
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I understand your argument and I agree that the style of Royal Majesty is superior to Imperial Highness.
However, I am still doubtful about the question of the Royal House: to my understanding, it might have become an Imperial House upon Astrid's (hypothetical) accession because of her husband's titles (even if they are courtesy ones), even if for her Reign-only (and unless it was explicitly announced otherwise).

Thank you very much for answering my question, MAfan.
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  #449  
Old 07-25-2009, 01:37 PM
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How are Astrid and Lorenz styled in Belgian official documents?
I guess however that if Astrid became Queen, they would make everything to make belgians forget that they are Habsburgs and don't use the imperial style (coming from a foreign and no more existant empire), also in the case they had right to do so. Probably Lorenz would also have signed a renounciation to his austrian claim, at least to the Modena claim. But since Philippe has 4 children, all this is just of theoric interest.
And does Monaco recognise officially Caroline as a HRH? The state of Hannover don't exist anymore and Great Britain does not recognise Ernst August as Prince of GB, right?
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  #450  
Old 07-25-2009, 06:22 PM
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Empress Astrid of Belgium... I like that idea

I'm guessing, in the unlikely case Princess Astrid would become Queen, her children would still bear the I & R styles, and the children of the boys would too (the girls don't pass on this style, do they?)

I thought that on the official Monace website, Caroline was referred to as HRH The Princess of Hannover. So they seem to recognize that style.
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  #451  
Old 07-25-2009, 07:22 PM
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Speculations on the issue of Astrid ever becoming a Queen (or Empress ) is certainly only hypothetical. But it's interesting to know how constitutional experts and lawyers would deal with the situation, however unlikely it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amedea View Post
<...>
And does Monaco recognise officially Caroline as a HRH? The state of Hannover don't exist anymore and Great Britain does not recognise Ernst August as Prince of GB, right?
The state of Monaco does formally recognize the titles and styles of Prince Ernst August of Hanover (and thus, of Princess Caroline). Prince Ernst August is styled HRH The Prince of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick and Lunenburg, Prince of Great Britain and Ireland. Everywhere but Monaco, these titles are used for courtesy and are ]not valid under British, Irish or German laws (in Germany, Royal and Noble titles were abolished in 1918 and are legally considered only surnames).
It should be noted that shortly before Ernst August and Caroline’s wedding in 1999, Queen Elizabeth issued an Order-in-Council, giving her Consent to their marriage (the Consent was sought by Ernst August). Without the Royal Assent, the marriage would be invalid in Britain (where Prince Ernst August owns substantial properties), as Ernst August is subject to the Royal Marriages Act 1772.


In Monaco (where her husband’s styles and titles are recognized) and in other Monarchies, the style of HRH is superior to Caroline’s former style of HSH (her legal title is HSH The Hereditary Princess of Monaco).

As Warren has already pointed out, should Caroline succeed Prince Albert as the Sovereign of Monaco, she would be known as HRH Caroline I, Princess of Monaco (although her ancestors and her brother had lower style of TSH). She would continue being a HRH throughout her Reign (although the dynasty name would remain Grimaldi, as per Article I of the 2002 Principality Law), however when Andrea succeeds his mother, he would not be entitled to use the style Royal Highness and would be instead styled as HSH Andrea I, Prince of Monaco.
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  #452  
Old 07-25-2009, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Marsel View Post

As Warren has already pointed out, should Caroline succeed Prince Albert as the Sovereign of Monaco, she would be known as HRH Caroline I, Princess of Monaco (although her ancestors and her brother had lower style of TSH). She would continue being a HRH throughout her Reign (although the dynasty name would remain Grimaldi, as per Article I of the 2002 Principality Law), however when Andrea succeeds his mother, he would not be entitled to use the style Royal Highness and would be instead styled as HSH Andrea I, Prince of Monaco.
Would then be Charlotte and Pierre also Prince(ss) of Monaco?
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  #453  
Old 07-25-2009, 07:42 PM
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They wouldn't be automatically entitled to any styles or titles, however if Caroline becomes Sovereign of Monaco, I think it is safe to assume that decrees would be issues granting them styles and titles of HSH, Prince(ss) of Monaco (unless they would prefer not to be granted any titles in order to pursue a more 'normal' lifestyle).
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  #454  
Old 07-25-2009, 08:11 PM
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So monarchies recognize also members of ex-sovereign houses as HRH and HIH? So Astrid is officially HI&RH?
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  #455  
Old 07-25-2009, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
If a female HRH marries a male HI&RH their children would be HI&RH. Once again, the question of female Heads of non-reigning Houses is extremely hypothetical as female Heads are few and far between. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is the only notable example.
I know that females being heads of their own dynastic houses are rare.
And the princess I use as signtaure is one of the few women that is head
of her own house it is not an if but an exact fact.She is not of a popular
house like Grand Duchess Maria Valdimirova is that is why it is not known.
She lives a private and quiet live outside from the more popular royals and
as well as nobles.There are many houses of all kinds it is highly unimpossible
to known all of them.Thanks for answering my question.

I believe that Monaco would become a royal house if Caroline manages to outlive Prince Albert being that her style from marriage
outranks her style from birth.
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  #456  
Old 07-26-2009, 12:05 AM
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The Grimadi dynasty would remain a princely house even with Caroline as the Sovereign. She only holds the rank of HRH through marriage, not in her own right, and her sovereign title as Caroline I, Princesse de Monaco is superior to the style of Royal Highness. Technically, she would be Caroline I, Princesse de Monaco, HRH Princesse de Hannover.

As a reigning Sovereign, Caroline would be of superior rank to being HRH The Princess of Hanover, which is a courtesy style only with no standing in Germany. It is simply a name. If HRH Princess Alexandra of Hanover succeeded her mother as Sovereign, only then would Monaco be elevated to a royal house.
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  #457  
Old 07-26-2009, 12:11 AM
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Would then be Charlotte and Pierre also Prince(ss) of Monaco?
Yes, they would be HSH Prince/Princesse de Monaco in their own right as the children of a reigning Sovereign, as would HRH Princess Alexandra von Hanover.
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  #458  
Old 07-26-2009, 12:45 AM
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Princess Caroline I of Monaco,HRH Princess of Hanover is the way the
princess would be address as.I just remembered that reigning heads
of state that are royal or noble and their families outrank those who
are non reigning heads of state that are royal or noble and their families.
I don't think that would happen their three people that are ahead of her
and she is so young but it is kinda of cool to think what would happen if
she were to become the soverign princess and rule and then Monaco.
Would exactly become a royal house because she holds the style of
royal highness at birth and not through marriage like her mother.
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  #459  
Old 07-26-2009, 06:19 AM
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The Belgian hypothetical regarding a future Queen Astrid is fairly straightforward. Belgium is constitutionally a Kingdom and would remain so. Although Astrid is an Archduchess of Austria by marriage, she is officially a Princess of Belgium. Significantly, her husband Archduke Lorenz was created a Prince of Belgium and their children, Archdukes and Archduchesses of Austria-Este by birth, are also officially Princes and Princesses of Belgium. Call it clever dynastic contingency planning - always look to the long term.

The Belgian Royal House is the near-invisible Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, since they prefer to go by "de Belgique" and variations thereof. In the now-unlikely event of Astrid's son Amedeo inheriting the Belgian crown it's safe to assume he would continue the current usage and not declare the resurrection of the Habsburg Dynasty.

The Luxembourgers took the pragmatic approach when they retained the maternal House of Nassau while acquiring the Bourbon-Parma paternity and Royal style. Without Prince Felix's essential contribution, the rash of Royal Highness Princes and Princesses of Nassau created since 2004 would otherwise be middling Highnesses, and most other members of the Ruling Family would attract curiosity by bearing the somewhat archaic style of Grand Ducal Highness.

Although Princess Caroline has the HRH through marriage to Prince Ernst August, as a hypothetical Sovereign Princess of Monaco my assumption is that she would continue to be addressed and styled as a Royal Highness rather than as a Serene Highness. This assumption may be wrong of course, but the scenario of a "Reigning Royal Grimaldi" is too good to be dismissed so easily.

° ° ° ° °

Next Star, when you ask a question here about reigning and non-reigning Royal or Princely Houses, the assumption is that you are referring to those Houses recognised by the Gotha, and by our members, and the response you get will be in reference to those Houses. If your questions instead allude or refer to such persons as "Princess Kamorrisa de St.Cogo,Countess von zu Welle" (from your signature) you really should direct those questions to them as they do not form part of the recognised royal world.

As an aside, there are four search results for this supposed-princess found on Google; two appear to relate to posts made by you in these Forums, and the other two lead to the "Regal World Forums" consisting of two pages here and here. I note that the content of these pages and another concerning "an aspiring and upcoming urban model" has a remarkable similarity to your own writing style.

The multi-titled "Princess Kamorrisa de St.Cogo, Countess von zu Welle, previously known as Duchess von Coth Ind Savoy" is a patent nonsense and should not be raised in serious discussion in these Forums.
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  #460  
Old 07-26-2009, 06:23 AM
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I still do not understand how a Royal house would become and Imperial one? Or a Princely house became a Royal one?

And how would Astrid go from being Queen to Empress?

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