The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Royal Highlights > General Royal Discussion > Royal Ceremony and Protocol

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #401  
Old 04-08-2009, 01:39 AM
Lady Claire's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New Orleans, United States
Posts: 290
Look at her mother Marie Astrid. She was born Princess Marie Astrid of Luxembourg, but upon her marriage to her second cousin, Archduke Carl Christian of Austria, she became known as Archduchess Marie Astrid of Austria.
__________________

__________________
"I can resist everything except temptation." - Oscar Wilde
Reply With Quote
  #402  
Old 04-08-2009, 03:45 AM
Princess Robijn's Avatar
Super Moderator
Blog Editor
Picture of the Month Representative - Denmark
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: -, Netherlands
Posts: 2,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
It's strange that she ceased to use imperial, royal and archducal titles in favour of a lowly comital title
She didn't, she 'gained' the title of Countess and can choose to be known as Countess.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #403  
Old 04-10-2009, 12:57 PM
RoyalProtocol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Belfast, United Kingdom
Posts: 670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post

If The Crown Prince of Someland died, his son would become the new Crown Prince of Someland and he would styled HRH The Crown Prince of Someand. The new Crown Prince's would be styled HRH The Crown Princess of Someland, while the widow would be HRH Crown Princess HerName of Someland. Therefore it's appropriate to always refer to Mary Elizabeth Donaldson as HRH The Crown Princess of Denmark (not HRH Crown Princess Mary of Denmark, because the definite article the promotes the title holder and points out his or her precedence).
She would cease to hold the title of Crown Princess and would properly become HRH The Princess Frederik of Denmark, a Crown Princess is only ever the wife of the Crown Prince and since he is dead in this example she is no longer a CP, but the widow of Prince Frederik
__________________
Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II
59 Years of Dedicated and Devoted Service

God Save The Queen!



Reply With Quote
  #404  
Old 04-10-2009, 02:21 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie View Post
My point being that there were other consorts who gave their place away, 2 more in this century QAlexandra and QMary, and they were not called QMother, as they were King mother, that was her special position, being a dowager queen and a mother of the next queen, vs M-I-Law
They were still Queen Mother even though their child was a King. They didn't need to go by Queen Mother since no one would confuse Queen Alexandra with Queen Mary or Queen Mary with Queen Elizabeth.

However, it would be easy to confuse Queen Elizabeth with Queen Elizabeth.

A side note, Queen Mary was never called the Queen Grandmother even though she was the grandmother of the Queen.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #405  
Old 04-10-2009, 02:42 PM
Kotroman's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: -, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 464
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalProtocol View Post
She would cease to hold the title of Crown Princess and would properly become HRH The Princess Frederik of Denmark, a Crown Princess is only ever the wife of the Crown Prince and since he is dead in this example she is no longer a CP, but the widow of Prince Frederik
I wouldn't agree. Widows retain the rank they enjoyed during marriage. One can argue that queen (consort) is only ever wife of king, so that the proper way to refer to her after her husband's death is Princess X of Y. Yet we all know that the widow of Frederick, Prince of Wales, was styled HRH The Dowager Princess of Wales and that the widow of Baldwin of Belgium isn't called Princess Fabiola of Belgium.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #406  
Old 04-10-2009, 04:10 PM
RoyalProtocol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Belfast, United Kingdom
Posts: 670
No these aren't the same though, A dowager Princess of Wales is exactly that and Queen Fabiola is a Queen Dowager but a Dowager Crown Princess couldn't technically exist IMHO.
__________________
Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II
59 Years of Dedicated and Devoted Service

God Save The Queen!



Reply With Quote
  #407  
Old 04-10-2009, 04:56 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince of Chota View Post
The "Queen Mother" wouldn't have been titled as such if she did not share a Christian name with her daughter.
I don't think so.
She was still the Queen Mother whether she was Queen Elizabeth, or Queen Alice or something?
I know it is to differ from the present QEII. But regardless she would still be the Queen Mother. Lots of wives of kings were never mentioned as the Queen Mother, but as the Dowager. Maybe not used for a Dowager but for a princesss eg. Catharine of Aragon, Joan Of Kent, Augusta Saxe Coburg-Gotha.

Queen Mother is of course simultaneously a former queen consort and the mother of the current monarch.
Which is what Queen Elizabeth was.


As for retaining titles i think CP's would only because they have given birth to an heir.
Obviously they wouldn't be the CP's, maybe until the heir was 18. Mary for instance would after be the HRH The Princess Frederik of Denmark, Dowager Princess I assume because she was never actually a Queen if Prince Frederik died a Prince?
A king then she would be the Queen Mother, mother of a monarch and former consort.
Others may get a customary title like Alexandra did upon divorce. I know Divorce and Death are obviously different.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #408  
Old 04-10-2009, 05:04 PM
RoyalProtocol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Belfast, United Kingdom
Posts: 670
You are a "Queen Mother" if you are The Queen Dowager and Mother of the Reigning Sovereign, therefore Queen Mary and Queen Alexandra were both Queen Mothers and Was Queen Elizabeth. In the case of Queen Elizabeth she didn't like the term Dowager a therfore used Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother to differentiate her from Her Daughter Her Present Majesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince of Chota View Post
"Dowager" was never a formal part of Queen Elizabeth's title, which is why the need for "Queen Mother" was so strong. It is alright to refer to her as "the dowager Queen of England," but not to say "the Dowager Queen Elizabeth" in formal circumstances.
At her Funeral she was declared Queen Dowager and Queen Mother by Garter http://www.theroyalforums.com/4778-4778/#more-4778
__________________
Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II
59 Years of Dedicated and Devoted Service

God Save The Queen!



Reply With Quote
  #409  
Old 04-10-2009, 05:08 PM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by lumutqueen
I don't think so.
Prince of Chota was referring to the use of the title of Queen Mother.
Although Queens Alexandra and Mary were in turn technically the 'Queen Mother', neither chose to be known as such.
Queen Elizabeth was the third Queen Mother of the twentieth century, but only she was known by this title and in effect made it her own.
She was probably quite pleased with that distinction.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #410  
Old 04-10-2009, 05:12 PM
RoyalProtocol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Belfast, United Kingdom
Posts: 670
I suppose Mary and Alexandra had no need to use the title, but in State Prayers they were referred to as such and I have seen many references to them as HM The Queen Mother from publications at that time. So the title must have been used by some press and public when referring to Their Majesties.
__________________
Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II
59 Years of Dedicated and Devoted Service

God Save The Queen!



Reply With Quote
  #411  
Old 04-10-2009, 05:19 PM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,395
Oh yes, it was used in some form as it was an official designation. I've seen references to the "Dowager Queen Mary" as well, just as you have recorded the use of "Queen Dowager and Queen Mother" by Garter in your post above. Because we are familiar with certain usages it can appear unusual or even odd when we see the formal or official designations in print.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #412  
Old 04-11-2009, 02:09 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: new york, United States
Posts: 39
Thanks everyone for answering my question.

Since Marie-Astrid was from a reigning royal family could she have chosen to not take Carl-Christian's title?or is that looked down upon with the royals?Like when us "commoners" get married and choose not to take our husbands last name.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #413  
Old 04-12-2009, 07:03 AM
Kotroman's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: -, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 464
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Robijn View Post
She didn't, she 'gained' the title of Countess and can choose to be known as Countess.
Isn't that what I said?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #414  
Old 04-18-2009, 08:05 PM
RoyalProtocol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Belfast, United Kingdom
Posts: 670
PRINCE EDWARD BUCKINGHAM PALACE LETTER PHOTO RARE CANCE on eBay, also, Prince Edward Sophie, Royalty, Collectables (end time 26-Apr-09 20:15:00 BST)

Have a look at the Letter on this Ebay sale- I have never before seen the Earl of Wessex referred to as Lord Wessex, it can't be proper to refer to The Queen's son as Lord Wessex.

I realise all Earls are Lord X socially but surely it should be at least Prince Edward in this case
__________________
Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II
59 Years of Dedicated and Devoted Service

God Save The Queen!



Reply With Quote
  #415  
Old 05-15-2009, 03:58 PM
espejor's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sevilla, Spain
Posts: 178
HellO!! Do you know if an Imperial Highness is "more" important than a Royal Highness?

Regards!!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #416  
Old 05-16-2009, 12:46 PM
Nathalie Cox's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: in a corner of ..., Argentina
Posts: 2,702
Well, maybe this article from Wikipedia can help you (I know wikipedia isn't very reliable but still) :
Imperial Highness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #417  
Old 05-17-2009, 01:17 PM
Kotroman's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: -, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 464
Imperial Highness traditionally outranked Royal Highness, as emperors and empresses traditionally outranked kings and queens.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #418  
Old 05-18-2009, 07:29 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Trust me you've never heard of it..., United States
Posts: 588
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabys View Post
Since Marie-Astrid was from a reigning royal family could she have chosen to not take Carl-Christian's title?or is that looked down upon with the royals?Like when us "commoners" get married and choose not to take our husbands last name.
I've actually never saw "Archduchess" Marie-Astrid listed as anything other than Princess Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg with Habsbourg titles afterward but not before her Luxembourg status in anything official. Most of the events she attends are in relation to Luxembourg and she is always listed as Princess of Luxembourg there. Carl-Christian doesn't actually have a title only his wife does. She retains her title and precedence as the eldest daughter of Grand Duke Jean. Carl-Christian actually takes his rank from Marie-Astrid you can see this from events in Luxembourg where the whole extended family is in attendance. The Marie-Astrid family will immediatley follow behind the children of Henri and Marie-Theresa.

No she did not have to take Carl-Christian's title or even his surname. If Princess Alexandra were to marry an ordinary man I sincerly doubt you would see her listed as anything other than HRH Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg. There is a reason that it is mentioned in the decrees concerning titles in Luxembourg that Princess who married without consent becomes a Countess de Nassau. In my mind this implies that even female members of the family will retain their titles. "Common" Luxembourg women generally combine their surname with that of their husband. I actually read a study on female usage of their husband's surname in Europe and Luxembourg was listed as one of the countries where it is automatically assummed that a wife will either take her husbands name or combine it with her own. I doubt it is a problem for Marie-Astrid or Carl-Christian since they are both decendants of the Luxembourg family, afterall.

Personally, I want to take my husbands name but at the same time it feels rather awkward to think of having someone's surname, IMHO. I imagine it takes some getting used to.
Reply With Quote
  #419  
Old 05-21-2009, 11:22 AM
Next Star's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: ******, United States
Posts: 872
Does it letters patent decide which title the children hold regardless of who is head of a house reigning or non reigning?
__________________
Patience is a virtue.

I'm head of a dynastic house no matter what others say.
Princess Kamorrissa,Countess of Welle
Reply With Quote
  #420  
Old 05-21-2009, 08:46 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Trust me you've never heard of it..., United States
Posts: 588
Letters Patent are a UK process. Other countries use royal decrees or even have titles of members of their houses defined by their respective constitutions, family pacts or house laws. In some countries such as Belgium where titles for those of the blood royal in the line of King Albert are defined by the constitution but no such provision exists for spouses so both the constitution and the royal fons honorum are used.


For non-reigning houses it varies greatly. In some cases old House Laws are used. Largely the head of the respective house governs title usage. Some houses require equal marriage (with relaxed standards now-a-days) and others only require approval of the head of the house.

All of Grand Duke Jean's daughters and even his sisters made good matches. It seems it is only the Luxembourg Princes who are interested in commoners as their Princesses have stuck to noble/royal matches with only the exception of GD Jean's niece Princess Charlotte coming to mind. There is no doubt that the marriage of Princess Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg and Archduke Carl-Christian of Austria received the approval of both Archduke Otto and GD Jean and GDss Josephine-Charlotte.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess Prince Harry and Prince William 1110 07-12-2014 10:00 PM
Questions about British Styles and Titles summrbrew2 British Royals 2451 06-24-2014 09:35 PM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 573 11-14-2013 11:59 AM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 36 08-08-2013 12:05 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn Abdication & Inauguration 2013 67 05-24-2013 03:14 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince felipe crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hohenzollern infanta elena infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king constantine ii king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympics ottoman picture of the month poland pom president hollande president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince felipe prince felix prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess beatrix princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess madeleine princess margriet princess marilene princess mary princess of asturias queen anne-marie queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit visit wedding



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:00 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]