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  #201  
Old 02-21-2006, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
I think it makes sense as well.

For everything that had happened during the divorce, the one thing that made sense to me is why and how COULD SHE KEEP the HRH, when in fact it was only a part of the title for the duration of her marriage and if she became a widow.

I could see her keeping her title but it made sense not to be able to use HRH.

I just thought of something.

Princess Michael could also go back to her title of Baroness as that is what she was before she married.

But knowing her...she would keep the Princess title.... :)

I know I would...

So, when the Dukes of the Blood Royal die and their sons inherit their titles of Duke of Gloucester and Kent, that means they will be addressed as Your Grace, taking the style and rank of a Duke in the peerage, as the sons are not HRH.
The idea of being "commoner" is in the UK much stricter than in other countries with a monarchy. While in most countries the whole family of an aristocrat is considered "noble", in the UK only the head of the family is a "peer", all the others are "commoners".

The daughters take their "Precedence" - that is their social position - from their father. Daughters are thus ranked higher than second sons. That's why the daughter of an earl is styled "Lady", but a second brother would only be "The Honorable Mr."

When daughters marry a man higher in rank, they share his place in the order of precedence and take on his name.

Eg. The ficticious Lady Carina Plum, daughter of the earl of Marmelade marries the earl of Jam. Now she is The Countess of Jam, called Lady Jam.

Lady Carina married the brother of Lord Jam, the Honorable Mr. Keith
Cherry. Now she would be Lady Carina Cherry while he stays Mr. Keith Cherry.

Lady Carina marries Mr. Nobody. Then she is Lady Carina Nobody.

Lady Carina marries Lord Edward Apricot, second son of the duke of Jelly who is higher in rank than her. Now she is Lady Edward Apricot.

If Lady Carina was the daughter of a duke herself, her rank would be higher than Lord Edward's (because she shares her father's rank who is a peer). Now she could decide if she wanted to become The Lady Edward or stay The Lady Carina. She would have to take into account which dukedom was older - that of her father of that of Jelly.

On becoming Lord Jams widow she would still be the Countess of Jam if the next earl was not yet married. If her son is the next earl of Jam and is already married, she would be "The Dowager Countess of Jam". If the next earl was the son from her late husband's first marriage, she would be Carina, countess of Jam, but still be called Lady Jam. She would still be considered a countess in the order of precedence.

The last thing applies to divorcees as well. Except that they loose the precedence they shared with their husbands. Thus both Diana and Fergie lost the HRH-style, because they never were "Royal Highnesses" in their own right, but only sharing their husband's Royal Titles. They used the widow's "name" from then on: Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. If Charles had died while Diana was still married to him, Prince William would have advanced to the title "The Prince of Wales". Diana would have been "The Dowager Princess of Wales" on keeping her HRH-style.

After her divorce, Diana could have gone back to her old title of "Lady" IIRC. She was correctly Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor, princess of Wales. In short Diana Wales. To avoid any problems, people were asked to address her as "Madam", which is an address that can be used with any lady of higher rank. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor had no own style from her father, she is Mrs. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor, duchess of York.

In my opinion the queen should have done something about that, maybe make Sarah into a "dame" at least or give her her own title as Lady Something... Queen Beatrix was more careful: she made her new daughter-in-law Maxima into a "Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange" in her own right, along with the style HRH. So even if The Prince of Orange divorced Princess Maxima, she still would be HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands.

Hope I recall all that correctly from a list where "precedence" was widely discussed...
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  #202  
Old 02-21-2006, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
The idea of being "commoner" is in the UK much stricter than in other countries with a monarchy. While in most countries the whole family of an aristocrat is considered "noble", in the UK only the head of the family is a "peer", all the others are "commoners".

The daughters take their "Precedence" - that is their social position - from their father. Daughters are thus ranked higher than second sons. That's why the daughter of an earl is styled "Lady", but a second brother would only be "The Honorable Mr."

When daughters marry a man higher in rank, they share his place in the order of precedence and take on his name.

Eg. The ficticious Lady Carina Plum, daughter of the earl of Marmelade marries the earl of Jam. Now she is The Countess of Jam, called Lady Jam.

Lady Carina married the brother of Lord Jam, the Honorable Mr. Keith
Cherry. Now she would be Lady Carina Cherry while he stays Mr. Keith Cherry.

Lady Carina marries Mr. Nobody. Then she is Lady Carina Nobody.

Lady Carina marries Lord Edward Apricot, second son of the duke of Jelly who is higher in rank than her. Now she is Lady Edward Apricot.

If Lady Carina was the daughter of a duke herself, her rank would be higher than Lord Edward's (because she shares her father's rank who is a peer). Now she could decide if she wanted to become The Lady Edward or stay The Lady Carina. She would have to take into account which dukedom was older - that of her father of that of Jelly.

On becoming Lord Jams widow she would still be the Countess of Jam if the next earl was not yet married. If her son is the next earl of Jam and is already married, she would be "The Dowager Countess of Jam". If the next earl was the son from her late husband's first marriage, she would be Carina, countess of Jam, but still be called Lady Jam. She would still be considered a countess in the order of precedence.

The last thing applies to divorcees as well. Except that they loose the precedence they shared with their husbands. Thus both Diana and Fergie lost the HRH-style, because they never were "Royal Highnesses" in their own right, but only sharing their husband's Royal Titles. They used the widow's "name" from then on: Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. If Charles had died while Diana was still married to him, Prince William would have advanced to the title "The Prince of Wales". Diana would have been "The Dowager Princess of Wales" on keeping her HRH-style.

After her divorce, Diana could have gone back to her old title of "Lady" IIRC. She was correctly Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor, princess of Wales. In short Diana Wales. To avoid any problems, people were asked to address her as "Madam", which is an address that can be used with any lady of higher rank. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor had no own style from her father, she is Mrs. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor, duchess of York.

In my opinion the queen should have done something about that, maybe make Sarah into a "dame" at least or give her her own title as Lady Something... Queen Beatrix was more careful: she made her new daughter-in-law Maxima into a "Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange" in her own right, along with the style HRH. So even if The Prince of Orange divorced Princess Maxima, she still would be HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands.

Hope I recall all that correctly from a list where "precedence" was widely discussed...
HRH Princess Máxima title is Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Mrs van Amsberg, she isn't the Princess of Orange, because of the fact that only the firstborn of the king/queen will have the title Prince(ss) of Orange..
so If Willem-Alexander becomes king, Catharina-Amalia will be the Princess of Orange..
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  #203  
Old 02-21-2006, 10:13 PM
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Maxima's titles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Robijn
HRH Princess Máxima title is Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Mrs van Amsberg, she isn't the Princess of Orange, because of the fact that only the firstborn of the king/queen will have the title Prince(ss) of Orange..
so If Willem-Alexander becomes king, Catharina-Amalia will be the Princess of Orange..
The above titles Maxima has been granted in her own right are correct, but she is also Princess of Orange by virtue of her marriage. Just as Letizia is Princess of the Asturias and Diana was Princess of Wales by virtue of their marriages. If and when Willem-Alexander becomes King she will cease to be Princess of Orange because she will be the Queen (Consort) of the Netherlands, and the title will devolve to their eldest child.

In the current era of gender equality it will be interesting to see if Catharina-Amalia's future husband receives the title of Prince of Orange as the spouse of the title-holder, or if equality of titles is only reserved for female spouses.
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  #204  
Old 02-22-2006, 03:16 AM
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Which one's a higher form of address?

His Highness(HH) or His Ducal Serene Highness(HDSH)?

And where does His Illustrious Higness(HIllH) fit in? Or His Serene Highness(HSH)?
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  #205  
Old 02-22-2006, 03:31 AM
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If I'm not mistaken, HSH is higher in rank than HH
and HRH is higher rank than HSH but i've not heard bout HIllH being used before by current royal families.
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  #206  
Old 02-22-2006, 03:36 AM
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I know HDSH fell out of fashion, the last person I know that used that address was Duke Wilhelm Georg August Heinrich Belgicus of Nassau.

As for HIllH, I'm not sure of it's out of fashion but supposedly The Count of Quadt uses it.

So HDSH, where does it place?
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  #207  
Old 02-22-2006, 05:46 AM
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I don't believe the future husband of Princess Catharina-Amalia will get the title of prince of orange..
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  #208  
Old 02-22-2006, 06:10 AM
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Me neither Princess Robijn, the court want to use it only for the heir. Maxima is never referred to as The Princess of Orange on any official document or on the website of the court etc. It is always HRH The Prince of Orange and HRH Princess Maxima (of The Netherlands) (they don't use crownprince(ss) either btw).
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  #209  
Old 02-22-2006, 06:58 AM
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From Wikipedia:

Imperial, Royal, and Princely Styles

Emperors and Empresses had the style of Imperial Majesty (HIM=His or Her Imperial Majesty).
Members of imperial families, generally had the style of Imperial Highness (HIH).
  • In Austria, the members of the Imperial family, due to their status as also members of the royal family of Hungary, held the style of Imperial and Royal Highness (HI&RH).
  • Also in Germany the Emperor and Empress would be addressed as Imperial and Royal Majesty because of them ruling over the Kingdom of Prussia and the German Empire.
  • In Russia, children and male-line grandchildren of the Emperor had the style of Imperial Highness (HIH). Male-line great-grandchildren held the style of Highness (HH). Also, the eldest son of any person who held the style of Highness also held the style of Highness. All other male-line descendants held the style Serenity, often translated as Serene Highness (HSH). Some Russian noble princes also hold the style of Serenity; all others and Russian Counts hold the style of Illustriousness, often translated as Illustrious Highness (HIllH).
Kings and Queens have the style of Majesty (HM).
Members of royal families (Princes and Princesses) generally have the style of Royal Highness (HRH), although in some royal families (for instance, Denmark), more junior princes and princesses only bear the style of His or Her Highness (HH).
Members of reigning princely families are styled Serene Highness (HSH).
Reigning Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses hold the style of Royal Highness (HRH).
The styles of members of Grand Ducal families have been inconsistent. In Luxembourg, more senior members of the family have also been Royal Highnesses, but only due to their status as princes of Bourbon of Parma. In Baden and Hesse and the Rhine, junior members held the style of Grand Ducal Highness (HGDH). Members of other grand ducal families generally held the style of Highness (HH).
Reigning Dukes and Duchesses bore the style of Highness (HH), as did other members of ducal families.
Junior members of some ducal families bore the style of Ducal Serene Highness (HDSH), although it fell out of fashion.
The Elector of Hesse-Kassel also bore the style of Highness, as did other members of the Hesse-Kassel family.
Mediatized Dukes and reigning and mediatized Fürsten and Fürstinnen (princes and princesses) bear the style of Serene Highness (HSH, German Durchlaucht), as do other members of princely families.
Mediatized Counts and Countesses bear the style of Illustrious Highness (HIllH, German Erlaucht).
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  #210  
Old 02-22-2006, 07:19 AM
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I'm not sure of the particulars but Princess Firyal still uses her title as a prncess when carrying out some of her charity work. Would this have been agreed upon when she divorced her husband?
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  #211  
Old 02-22-2006, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sesa
Just because her husband died does not mean that she is demoted to a lower rank of Princess. She is still a queen in her own right since she was married to the King. Just like when commoners are married and the spouse dies, they are still known as "Mrs." Whatever. They do not revert back to Ms. or Miss because they are not single. They are widowed, hence keeping the "Mrs." .
Does anyone know what Dutch dowager queens consort are called (it's been so long since there was one!). Unlike other European monarchies, the Netherlands has a tradition of abdication and I know that Queen Juliana reverted to the title of princess after her daughter Beatrix became queen. If Willem-Alexander assumes the throne and pre-deceases Maxima, will she continue to be referred to as Queen when her daughter assumes the throne? If Willem-Alexander abdicates the throne at a certain age (like his grandmother), will he and Maxima revert to the style of prince and princess? I imagine they couldn't revert to the Prince and Princess of Orange titles, since those titles will be for Catherina-Amalia's eldest. Any thoughts?
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  #212  
Old 02-22-2006, 11:38 AM
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There are no rules about it. Juliana and Wilhelmina chose the title of Princess, though technically they could have kept the title 'Queen' (like the abdicated King Leopold of Belgium). As the ladies were pragmatic they thought it would only create confusion.
It is not know if WA and Maxima will revert to prince and princess after a possible abdication, there re no fixd rules for that, though it is expected as there is a precedent. They will not revert to the prince of Orange as that title is for the heir.
Now, it is still unclear if Maxima will be styled as Queen. The gouverment did not want to decide about this when the couple married but members of parliament were making remarks that it was odd that the consort of a Queen is a prince and the consort of a King is a Queen. Some people wanted to get equal rules for this as well. But this is something for the (not to far) future.
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  #213  
Old 02-22-2006, 11:47 AM
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Thanks, Marengo - very interesting! Another example of the Dutch always striving to do the right thing - I love it.
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  #214  
Old 02-22-2006, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
I trust the subject of Diana is not going to take over this thread.

Here is Ysbel's original question:

Are there any other royal divorces where the wife kept the title or gave it up?

W
it's hard not for Diana to take over this thread since hers was the spectacular and most publicized divorce. Most royal divorces were kept quiet before hers. Thanks for reminding us of the original question :)

Royal titles are like normal common titles. If a woman divorces her husband and doesn't legally change back to her maiden name, she would be known as Mrs. Mary Smith. A good example is Camilla. She never changed her name back to Camilla Shand so she was always known as Mrs. Camilla Parker-Bowles.
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  #215  
Old 02-22-2006, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
The idea of being "commoner" is in the UK much stricter than in other countries with a monarchy. While in most countries the whole family of an aristocrat is considered "noble", in the UK only the head of the family is a "peer", all the others are "commoners".

The daughters take their "Precedence" - that is their social position - from their father. Daughters are thus ranked higher than second sons. That's why the daughter of an earl is styled "Lady", but a second brother would only be "The Honorable Mr."

When daughters marry a man higher in rank, they share his place in the order of precedence and take on his name.

Eg. The ficticious Lady Carina Plum, daughter of the earl of Marmelade marries the earl of Jam. Now she is The Countess of Jam, called Lady Jam.

Lady Carina married the brother of Lord Jam, the Honorable Mr. Keith
Cherry. Now she would be Lady Carina Cherry while he stays Mr. Keith Cherry.

Lady Carina marries Mr. Nobody. Then she is Lady Carina Nobody.

Lady Carina marries Lord Edward Apricot, second son of the duke of Jelly who is higher in rank than her. Now she is Lady Edward Apricot.

If Lady Carina was the daughter of a duke herself, her rank would be higher than Lord Edward's (because she shares her father's rank who is a peer). Now she could decide if she wanted to become The Lady Edward or stay The Lady Carina. She would have to take into account which dukedom was older - that of her father of that of Jelly.

On becoming Lord Jams widow she would still be the Countess of Jam if the next earl was not yet married. If her son is the next earl of Jam and is already married, she would be "The Dowager Countess of Jam". If the next earl was the son from her late husband's first marriage, she would be Carina, countess of Jam, but still be called Lady Jam. She would still be considered a countess in the order of precedence.

The last thing applies to divorcees as well. Except that they loose the precedence they shared with their husbands. Thus both Diana and Fergie lost the HRH-style, because they never were "Royal Highnesses" in their own right, but only sharing their husband's Royal Titles. They used the widow's "name" from then on: Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. If Charles had died while Diana was still married to him, Prince William would have advanced to the title "The Prince of Wales". Diana would have been "The Dowager Princess of Wales" on keeping her HRH-style.

After her divorce, Diana could have gone back to her old title of "Lady" IIRC. She was correctly Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor, princess of Wales. In short Diana Wales. To avoid any problems, people were asked to address her as "Madam", which is an address that can be used with any lady of higher rank. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor had no own style from her father, she is Mrs. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor, duchess of York.

In my opinion the queen should have done something about that, maybe make Sarah into a "dame" at least or give her her own title as Lady Something... Queen Beatrix was more careful: she made her new daughter-in-law Maxima into a "Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange" in her own right, along with the style HRH. So even if The Prince of Orange divorced Princess Maxima, she still would be HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands.

Hope I recall all that correctly from a list where "precedence" was widely discussed...
I love the edible examples :) Well done :)
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  #216  
Old 02-22-2006, 04:06 PM
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So does that mean HDSH is lower than HH? And HIllH is lowest?
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Old 02-22-2006, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
So does that mean HDSH is lower than HH? And HIllH is lowest?
More or less so, but HDSH fell out of favour a long time ago (so much so it rarely appears even in the genealogies). HIllH is the lowest because it is a Mediatised Comital style, and Counts rank below Princes. Although, to confuse the issue, the heads of some Comital Houses are Princes with the style of HSH.

Be careful not to place a person's ranking on their style. Even today a Serene Highness can rank higher than an Imperial and Royal Highness; eg Prince Albert II and Prince Hans Adam rank higher than an average Archduke because they are reigning monarchs. Similarly, HSH Hereditary Prince Alois of Liechtenstein ranks higher than HRH The Duke of York because Alois is a Crown Prince and Andrew isn't.

I remember seeing a documentary many years ago on the late Prince of Thurn und Taxis where he had a large dinner party. His head butler had quite a chore in ranking all the guests in the correct order of precedence, and the seating plan was upset with the arrival of two unexpected guests. In the old Austria-Germany the ranking of guests would have occupied a great deal of time and care to ensure no errors were made nor offense caused.
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  #218  
Old 02-22-2006, 10:26 PM
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Yes (with a but). HIllH is the lowest of those styles, but by no means the lowest of styles available (particularly in the Peerage of the United Kingdom).
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  #219  
Old 02-22-2006, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
More or less so, but HDSH fell out of favour a long time ago (so much so it rarely appears even in the genealogies). HIllH is the lowest because it is a Mediatised Comital style, and Counts rank below Princes. Although, to confuse the issue, the heads of some Comital Houses are Princes with the style of HSH.

Be careful not to place a person's ranking on their style. Even today a Serene Highness can rank higher than an Imperial and Royal Highness; eg Prince Albert II and Prince Hans Adam rank higher than an average Archduke because they are reigning monarchs. Similarly, HSH Hereditary Prince Alois of Liechtenstein ranks higher than HRH The Duke of York because Alois is a Crown Prince and Andrew isn't.

I remember seeing a documentary many years ago on the late Prince of Thurn und Taxis where he had a large dinner party. His head butler had quite a chore in ranking all the guests in the correct order of precedence, and the seating plan was upset with the arrival of two unexpected guests. In the old Austria-Germany the ranking of guests would have occupied a great deal of time and care to ensure no errors were made nor offense caused.
I pity the poor head butler. I saw a documentary of HMEII and a year in her life, there was a similar banquet dinner and the butler had similar problems. I'm glad i don't hve to give such dinner parties!
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Old 02-22-2006, 10:49 PM
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Interesting thread. From what I read, a Sovereign anything (Prince or Grand Duke) outranks another person with a similar title that is not a head of state himself or herself. The Grand Dukes of Luxemburg outrank any Russian or German Grand Duke. I'll see if I can find you the sites:
History of Nobility

Ranks of Nobility


:) Found it! One of my favorite places to learn these complicated details:
A Glossary of EuropeanNoble, Princely, Royal, and Imperial Titles. Section # 5 and 5.2 refer to ruling titles
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