The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #61  
Old 02-16-2013, 04:42 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Washington DC, United States
Posts: 72
Well William followed The Duke of Edinburgh at the Remembrance Day service last year while Charles was absent. That could just be an exception, but I can't remember any occasion where either Wales boy followed their uncles.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 02-16-2013, 06:15 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
That makes sense, and thanks for clearing that up. I did read that Zara Phillips has said she always makes sure to curtsey to HM, and I have seen images of Royals curtsying or bowing to her as well, but then HM is a special case.

So, basically Catherine is supposed to curtsey to the Princesses of York if her husband is not there (and VI's versa if he is), and Zara is supposed to curtsey to all of them, but this doesn't typically happen. All are supposed to curtsey to HM, and this does happen. Correct?
On official events (that is, at all events when Official Precedence is implemented), Kate isn't supposed to curtsey to anyone but The Queen, the Duchess of Cornwall and (possibly) The Countess of Wessex. Kate (wife of the Sovereign's grandson) has higher precedence than Beatrice or Eugenie (the Sovereign's granddaughters).

On private events (when Private Precedence is implemented), in addition to the aforementioned Ladies, Kate would also curtsey to Princess Alexandra, Princess Anne, Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie.


Zara's place in the Official Order of Precedence comes immediately after Beatrice and Eugenie. That means, in theory, she should curtsey to everyone that comes ahead of her - The Queen, Camilla, Sophie, Kate, Autumn (see below), Beatrice and Eugenie.

I should add that some believe Zara must not be included in the Official Order as she is female-line granddaughter of the Monarch. However, I have found absolutely no notion that only male-line granddaughters are included. The same goes for Autumn (Peter's wife); as wife of the Sovereign's grandson she should be ahead of Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and Zara - unless she isn't included at all as wife of the female-line grandson.


In practice, British Royals only curtsey to the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh, and very, very rarely (during the most official events) to each other. As I have already mentioned, the whole Order of Precedence business is of more academical than practical interest.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 02-16-2013, 06:18 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
What would be interesting would be to see how they would enter if Charles wasn't there - would William and Harry then come after Andrew and Edward or still take their precedence based on their father's and their place in the line of succession?
That's an interesting question and one I have been wondering about as well.

The Official Order is very clear: the Sovereign's sons take precedence over the Sovereign's grandsons. However, in recent years we have seen a slight change to that, with William and Harry apparantely taking precedence over their uncles. It may be due to a Private Order (which we don't even know exists), or a permanent change.

William's apparent precedence over the Duke of York during the recent Remembrance Service (when he was not representative his father) may be due to his special position as the Heir's heir. But like you I'd be interested to see the arrival and walking order of the British Royals when Andrew, Edward, William and Harry are present, and Charles isn't.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 06-08-2013, 11:03 AM
carlota's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: , United States
Posts: 5,719
Seating order

i'm interested by the way the royal invitees row (first one on madeleine's side) was arranged at the swedish royal wedding. initially you had obviously the swedish royals, next to them madeleine's godparents. after, it was monaco, the danish, the norwegians, luxembourg, and at the end japan. i'm puzzled by the order given to the monarchies - doesn't protocol dictate that their representants should be arranged by alphabetical order?
__________________
Sign the United Nations Universal Declaration on Animal Welfare: http://www.animalsmatter.org
YOUR DAILY CLICK HELPS ANIMALS SURVIVE!
Feed an animal in need, click for free.
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Take some time to sign the petitions @: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/animal-welfare/all
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 06-08-2013, 11:36 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 955
They are seated by rank, never by alphabetical order.
Which means that Charlene as the wife of a head of state sits before the heirs.
If they have the same rank they are seated after the "age" of their royal house. So CP Frederik + spouse come before CP Haakon + spouse (Dk being the eldest royal house and Norway the youngest IIRC). Last of the heirs are those of Luxembourg because it is "only" a grand-dukedom, not a kingdom. Japan was last because she is only a representant/princess, not an heir (=lower rank).

If for example country A sends the monarch and the crown prince(ss) and country B only the crown prince(ss) then the cp of country B would be seated higher than the cp of country A, no matter how "old" his royal house is, because he is the highest ranking of country B whereas the highest ranking of country A is the monarch.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 06-08-2013, 12:39 PM
carlota's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: , United States
Posts: 5,719
thanks ricarda, that makes sense.

it was also the order they used to make the guests enter the church, in reverse, obviously.

The entry of the guests of honour into the cathedral - Sveriges Kungahus [NS4 version]
__________________
Sign the United Nations Universal Declaration on Animal Welfare: http://www.animalsmatter.org
YOUR DAILY CLICK HELPS ANIMALS SURVIVE!
Feed an animal in need, click for free.
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Take some time to sign the petitions @: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/animal-welfare/all
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 06-08-2013, 02:21 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 581
I think the heirs to the thrones are seated according to the date of when their monarch came to the throne thus how long they have been crown prince/heir. The Queen of Denmark came to the throne before the King of Norway so Fredrik and Mary are seated ahead of Haakon and Mette-Marit.
Princess Charlene was seated ahead of the DAnish crown prince/princess as she is the wife of a reining royal. The Luxembourg couple were seated last of the heirs as Grand Duke Henri only succeed to the throne in 2000.
After the crown prince/princesses come the lower down royals by ranking of succession and then the dates their monarchs ascended to their thrones.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 06-08-2013, 02:27 PM
Molly2101's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,555
The current heirs were in the front row, with the other family members behind. Edward and Sophie, Marie and Joachim and Marth-Louise and Ari were in the second row as they aren't heirs.
__________________
"I am yours, you are mine, of that be sure. You are locked in my heart, the little key is lost and now you must stay there forever."
Written by Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in the diary of her fiance, Tsarevich Nicholas.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 06-08-2013, 02:45 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I think the heirs to the thrones are seated according to the date of when their monarch came to the throne thus how long they have been crown prince/heir. The Queen of Denmark came to the throne before the King of Norway so Fredrik and Mary are seated ahead of Haakon and Mette-Marit.
Princess Charlene was seated ahead of the DAnish crown prince/princess as she is the wife of a reining royal. The Luxembourg couple were seated last of the heirs as Grand Duke Henri only succeed to the throne in 2000.
After the crown prince/princesses come the lower down royals by ranking of succession and then the dates their monarchs ascended to their thrones.
You mean it's the duration of the reign of the current monarch and not of the royal house itself which counts. I have never heard that before but it does make sense as well. Although I once got the explanation that the reason for Queen Elizabeth's notorious absence at other royal houses' festivities is that she would not be seated highest as the royal house of Windsor isn't as old as others - and the British can't have that. According to your theory she actually would be seated highest as she reigns longest.

The Luxembourg couple does not have the same rank as the Danish and Norwegian couples. They would have been seated after them even if the Grand-Duke had ascended to the throne before Queen Margrethe.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 06-08-2013, 03:50 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 581
Thats how I've always believed it to be organised by length of reign of the current monarch.
I may very well be wrong but I've always believed that the Luxembourg couple have the same rank as other heir to the thrones. Whilst "only a grand duchy" they are still teh heirs to a reining throne. The only way to truly be sure would have been if the new Princess of Orange represented the Netherlands as I beleive she would have been seated as the last of the heirs as the newest, if the luxembourg couple came after her then it would be a sign they are treated differently but I have never seen evidence of that.
Likewise if a Grand Duchy was treated differently then a Principality would be treateddifferently but the Sovereign Princess of Monaco was seated the closest/highest of any royal bar the King, Queen , Crown Princess and Prince Daniel of Sweden and Madeleine's godparents. So clearly she was ranked higher as the wife of a reigining royal regarldess of the fact she is "only" from a principality.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 06-08-2013, 03:58 PM
ANNIE_S's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: -, Spain
Posts: 2,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
Thats how I've always believed it to be organised by length of reign of the current monarch.
That what I´ve always believed, too. At least it´s the most used standard as far as I know (I think it´s the least controversial, as well).
But I think that each RH established the criteria they find most appropriate for eachh ceremony.
__________________
Palaces are not the ones that dignify kings; kings are the ones who honor them with their presence.
Isabel, ep. 26

Proud admirer and supporter of the Princess of Asturias, Viana and Gerona (2005 - ) :)
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 06-08-2013, 04:11 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro and Petrópolis, Brazil
Posts: 1,124
I think the order of precedence is something like that:

- Monarchs by the lenght of reign and their styles (Imperial Majesties, Majesties, Royal Highnesses).

- Heirs (I don't know if heirs presumptives can be included) by the lenght of their Monarchs reigns and theirs styles.

- Other Royals (the same criteria used to Heirs).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 06-08-2013, 05:17 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 581
thats how i think it goes as well.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 06-08-2013, 05:26 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: NN, Lithuania
Posts: 652
firstly by theirs styles, secondly the lenght of their Monarchs reigns (in each group)
Dutch inauguration showed it perfectly
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 06-08-2013, 05:28 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I may very well be wrong but I've always believed that the Luxembourg couple have the same rank as other heir to the thrones. Whilst "only a grand duchy" they are still teh heirs to a reining throne. The only way to truly be sure would have been if the new Princess of Orange represented the Netherlands as I beleive she would have been seated as the last of the heirs as the newest, if the luxembourg couple came after her then it would be a sign they are treated differently but I have never seen evidence of that.
Likewise if a Grand Duchy was treated differently then a Principality would be treated differently but the Sovereign Princess of Monaco was seated the closest/highest of any royal bar the King, Queen , Crown Princess and Prince Daniel of Sweden and Madeleine's godparents. So clearly she was ranked higher as the wife of a reigining royal regarldess of the fact she is "only" from a principality.
Guillaume is an heir, but he is Hereditary Grand Duke not Crown Prince. It's a lower rank.
The Sovereign Princess of Monaco was seated highest because she was the only one of the "current monarch"-level present (besides Madeleine's parents). If other monarchs or their wives/husbands had been present she would have been the lowest ranking among them and accordingly less close seated to the family, even behind the Grandduke/duchess of Luxembourg - but still before any heir - just like Albert always has at such events since he became sovereign.

Among the heirs the Luxembourgs are currently the lowest ranking and they will be until Albert&Charlene have an heir.

Regarding the seating of monarchs of equal rank (kings/queens) you might be right though. It might be the duration of their reign which counts and not the "age" of the royal house. I will check that with the Spanish and Luxembourg weddings which I recorded.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 06-08-2013, 05:34 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: NN, Lithuania
Posts: 652
You can see royal rank from their style.
Guillaume is HRH, Frederik is HRH, Hookon is HRH.
Albert's heir will be HSH, so he/she will be always lower.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 06-08-2013, 05:51 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 955
Well, I guess we will have to wait for the next royal event where both the Grand-Duke of Luxembourg and the King of the Netherlands attend, and then see whether WA is seated lower (as the newest monarch) or higher (as king versus grand-duke) than H. I personally think a king ranks higher, regardless of styles.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 06-08-2013, 06:04 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: NN, Lithuania
Posts: 652
Seating order at Dutch inauguration (order of precedence)

1. Prince Albert II of Monaco (a monarch)
2. Princess Lalla Salma of Morocco (a wife of monarch, HRH)
3. Sheikha Moza bint Nasser al-Misned (a wife of monarch, HH)
4. Crown Prince Naruhito and Crown Princess Masako of Japan (a heir, HIH, from 1989)
5. Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn & Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn (a heir, HRH, from 1946)
6. The Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall (a heir, HRH, from 1952)
7. Crown Prince Billah and Princess Sarah of Brunei (a heir, HRH, from 1967)
8. Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary of Denmark (a heir, HRH, from 1972)
9. Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Daniel of Sweden (a heir, HRH, from 1973)
10. The Prince and Princess of Asturias (a heir, HRH, from 1975)
11. Hereditary Prince Alois and Hereditary Princess Sophie of Liechtenstein (a heir, Sophie is HRH, from 1989)
12. Crown Prince Haakon and Crown Princees Mette-Marit of Norway (a heir, HRH, from 1991)
13. Prince Philippe and Princess Mathilde of Belgium (a heir, HRH, from 1993)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 06-08-2013, 06:08 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: NN, Lithuania
Posts: 652
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricarda View Post
Well, I guess we will have to wait for the next royal event where both the Grand-Duke of Luxembourg and the King of the Netherlands attend, and then see whether WA is seated lower (as the newest monarch) or higher (as king versus grand-duke) than H. I personally think a king ranks higher, regardless of styles.
the King of the Netherlands is HRM, the Grand-Duke of Luxembourg is HRH. So the King outranks the Grand-Duke.
But their heirs are HRHs, they have the same style. At this point all depends on "age" of their monarch's ruling.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 06-08-2013, 06:16 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 955
There is something wrong in your list. AFAIK Victoria was born in 1977 and is heiress since 1980.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth bourbon-parma charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hohenzollern infanta sofia jewellery jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympics ottoman pieter van vollenhoven pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marilene princess mary princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit visit wedding william



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:55 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]