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  #721  
Old 10-09-2014, 01:58 PM
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Thank you for the answer Muhler. There is a documentary about QEII during her Jubilee year and a clip where the Queen is speaking to PM David Cameron about the econonic crisis in Greece and the Queen says to her Prime Minister "The King rang me about it, he is quite concerned"

It seemed odd to me at least that she referred to Constantine as King let alone acknowledge they talked about the economic conditions in Greece.
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  #722  
Old 10-09-2014, 02:15 PM
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Queen Elizabeth 11 has the same view as Queen Margarethe 11 - 'once a majesty, always a majesty...
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  #723  
Old 10-09-2014, 02:15 PM
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In one of the episodes of the Diamond Queen that Andrew Marr did, it had footage from the lunch at Windsor with all the other monarchs. When they did the photo of the monarchs with the Queen, they did it by oldest to newest. Constantine and Michael of Romania both ex Kings were on either side of Elizabeth.


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  #724  
Old 10-09-2014, 02:23 PM
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Well this may have been a way to avoid a family feud considering that Phillip is a cousin to both Michael and Constantine.
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  #725  
Old 10-09-2014, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
I have a question. Do former monarchies ever make formal complaints about their royals continuing to be granted courtesies in other countries. Like does the government of Greece ever say to Britain or Denmark stop treating Constantine as if he is still royal?
I don't think they would ever complain to a foreign country about how their former royals are being treated, provided as Muhler pointed out, they're not being treated like they're actual representatives of the nation still (at least, if they're not; some non-reigning monarchs do have roles in their countries now; Michael I of Romania and Grand Duchess Maria both come to mind here. QEII is well within her rights to talk to Constantine II about the situation in Greece and to mention it to her PM, provided that they don't then treat his views as anything other than a private individual voicing concern about a situation. It does seem odd that that clip would be chosen to air, but it doesn't seem odd at all that she refers to Constantine as the King (he is; in her view once a majesty always a majesty, unless you abdicate under situations like Beatrix of the Netherlands), or that she would have spoken to him about the situation in Greece and mentioned it to her PM - why wouldn't she speak to a friend and family member about a situation in his home country?

Constantine has clashed with the Greek government in regards to his titles and passport. He recognizes the Republic, but until 1994 had a passport that titled him as Constantine, former King of the Hellenes." In 1994 Greece stripped him of his citizenship, passport, and property, saying that he could only be granted a Greek passport if he adopted a surname, and he refuses to do so saying that ""I don't have a name - my family doesn't have a name." Constantine no longer uses the title "King of the Hellenes" at all, instead styling himself King Constantine (comparable to how Albert II of Belgium is styled post-abdication), and uses a Danish diplomatic passport as a descendant of Christian IX (Denmark issues diplomatic passports to any such descendants if they request one) as "Constantine de Grecia".

In Austria the nobility, noble privileges, noble titles, and noble names were abolished in 1919, but only within Austria. Therefore, according to Austrian law it is illegal for Karl von Habsburg to go by "von Habsburg" - his legal name in Austria is Karl Habsburg-Lothringen, as "von" is a noble name. However, as a German citizen (he was born in Germany) his surname is "von Habsburg" and in some places he's recognized as Archduke Karl of Austria (he was actually baptized as such in Bavaria). The Austrians don't seem to mind, provided as he's not using the title in Austria.
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  #726  
Old 10-09-2014, 02:45 PM
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When Constantine dies, does CP Pavlos stay how is titled now? I don't see how he can become King when Greece is a republic.


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  #727  
Old 10-09-2014, 03:14 PM
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He will remain titular Crown Prince, Skippyboo , just as Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia is...
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  #728  
Old 10-09-2014, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
When Constantine dies, does CP Pavlos stay how is titled now? I don't see how he can become King when Greece is a republic.


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That will be interesting to learn!

In any way I guess he will remain a pretender of some sort but no more, unless Greece reintroduce the monarchy.
In DK I guess he will continue to be treated as a prince, but no red carpet-treatment though
Pavlos will never have been crowned nor at any time officially recogniced as a monarch, so the once a majesty always a majesty will most likely not apply.
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  #729  
Old 10-09-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Queen Elizabeth 11 has the same view as Queen Margarethe 11 - 'once a majesty, always a majesty...

I'm guessing Elizabeth II didn't feel that way about the Duke of Windsor.
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  #730  
Old 10-09-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
I'm guessing Elizabeth II didn't feel that way about the Duke of Windsor.

There's a different attitude about monarchs who abdicate without the monarchy ending, and monarchs who are deposed.

Edward VIII of the UK, Beatrix of the Netherlands, Carol II of Romania, Marie-Adelaide of Luxembourg, etc, are all people who abdicated (either voluntarily or by force) and yet the monarchy continued in their former realms. Michael I of Romania, Constantine II of Greece, etc, are all individuals who were overthrown and their realms ceased to be realms. Recognizing them as continuing to be Majesties while not heads of states is a slightly different matter.
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  #731  
Old 01-29-2017, 11:47 AM
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In 1917 King George V codified the style and title of prince/ss in Britain

He referred to it in Letters Patent as the 'style, title or attribute' of Royal Highness and the 'titular dignity' of Prince or Princess.

I'm wondering do other royal families use similar language or is it a matter for the government to decide the wording of titles.
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  #732  
Old 01-29-2017, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
In 1917 King George V codified the styles and titles of prince/ss in Britain

He referred to it in Letters Patent as the 'style, title or attribute' of Royal Highness and the 'titular dignity' of Prince or Princess.

I'm wondering do other royal families use similar language or is it a matter for the government to decide the wording of titles.
I am not sure if I understood your question.

Anyway, in Belgium and in Spain, royal titles and styles are regulated by royal decrees, but, since the constitution says that all royal decrees must be countersigned by one or more responsible ministers, they are effectively regulated by the government.

In the Netherlands, on the other hand, royal titles and styles are regulated by an act of parliament, which was introduced in the Lower House by the ministers on behalf of the King (like most public laws BTW). The act of parliament in question, however, grants the King a discretionary power to confer some royal titles (like Prins der Nederlanden or Prins van Oranje-Nassau) on certain categories of people (e.g. the wife of the Prince of Orange, or the monarch's children other than the heir to the throne). As in Belgium and in Spain though, royal decrees must be countersigned by ministers, so, again, it is up to the government to decide who gets a titlle within the constraints set out in the law.

In any case though, Belgian, Spanish or Dutch titles such as e.g. as "Prince/Princesse de Belgique", "Duc/Duchesse de Brabant", "Príncipe/Princesa de Asturias", "Infante/Infanta de Espańa", "Prins/Prinses der Nederlanden". "Prins/Prinses van Oranje" etc, are not arbitrary, but rather defined in appropriate legal instruments with those exact names.

The Scandinavian countries , compared to the former aformentioned countries, seem to be a little bit more chaotic. Apparently, any person in the line of succession (currently only descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf who are not disqualified by law) can be a prince or princess of Sweden, but the actual title the person gets seems to be a discretion of the Royal Court. For example, before 1980, when succession was still agnatic, all male descendants of King Karl XIV Johan had the title of Sveriges Arvfurste (i.e. hereditary prince of Sweden), with the exception of the heir to the throne who was the Sveriges Kronprins; a female descendant in male line of King Karl XIV Johan or the wife of a prince was, however, entitled a Sveriges Prinsessa. After 1980, those titles changed: the heir is still called Sveriges Kronprins (actually, now a Kronprinsessa), but the new name for other men and women in the line of succession, as well as wives of princes and the husband of the Crown Princess, is simply Prins av Sverige or Prinsessa av Sverige. None of those titles are regulated by law (other than indirectly by the Act of Succession) or by an specifc executive order.

Furthermore, King Carl XVI Gustaf himself adopted a new simplified title ("Sveriges Konung") in his declaration of accession to the throne (before him, his predecessors called themselves "med Guds Nĺde Sveriges, Götes och Vendes Konung"); apparently it is his choice to call himself whatever he wants to be called, unlike in Spain or Belgium for example where the title of the King is defined in law (in Spain, it is actually part of the constitution).

I am not sure about Denmark, but I believe that , as in Sweden, royal styles and titles are not regulated by law there either. The Danish court uses the title Prins/Prinsesse til Danmark to refer to all people who are in the line of succession, and Prins/Prinsesse af Danmark to refer to wives of princes in the line of succession and to members of collateral lines of the dynasty, who since 1953, have not been part of the line of succession (e.g. descendants in male line of King Christian IX who do not also descend from King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine). But, again , those titles seem to be arbitrary as is BTW Queen Margrethe II's own title of Danmarks Dronning, which she also chose for herself (her father before her called himself, in a dispute of claims with the Swedes and other countries, "af Guds Nĺde Konge til Danmark, de Venders og Goters, Hertug til Slesvig, Holsten, Stormarn, Ditmarsken, Lauenborg og Oldenborg"

Furthermore, both in Denmark and in Sweden, when a prince or princess is excluded from the line of succession, e,g. because they married without consent, he or she also lose their royal titles and styles,although that seems to be also arbitrary. In Belgium, by contrast, as shown in the examples of Prince Alexandre and, more recently, for a brief period of time, Prince Amedeo, loss of succession rights seems to be dissociated from royal titles and styles. In the Netherlands, certain titles like "prince of the Netherlands" are lost though with loss of succession rights, but that is not arbitrary as in Denmark and Sweden, but rather mandated by law as the law ties those titles to membership of the Royal House, and membership of the Royal House, in turn, is tied to succession rights.
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  #733  
Old 01-29-2017, 01:32 PM
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^^^ Thanks

So the language used by King George V, 'style, title or attribute' and 'titular dignity' is a British thing and not used by other royal houses
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  #734  
Old 01-29-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
^^^ Thanks

So the language used by King George V, 'style, title or attribute' and 'titular dignity' is a British thing and not used by other royal houses
I am not sure. I think that has to do more with a dictionary definition of what " title, style, attributes and dignity" mean in each language, rather than with conventions of the Royal House.

For example, in Spain, the royal decree 1368/1987, if I am not mistaken, mentions the "dignidad" (dignity ) of "Príncipe de Asturias" or "Infante", but the "tratamiento" (i.e. form of address, maybe style ?) of "Alteza Real" (Royal Highness). It also mentions other "títulos" (titles) that may belong to the Crown. The preamble to the decree itself says that it is about "Régimen de títulos, tratamientos y honores de la Familia Real y la Regencia". So, I would say those distinctions are also made in Spanish,
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  #735  
Old 01-29-2017, 02:25 PM
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Correct, Mbruno.

In DK it's the Monarch who decide the titles.
The only exception being that of the heir. I.e. the Crown Prince/ss. The Monarch cannot change or strip the heir of that title, nor by-pass the heir.

In theory the Monarch does not even have to bestow those in the line of succession with the title of Prince/ss to Denmark. Even if their place is secured by the Law of Succession.
But it would be nothing short of sensational is such a person did not get the title of Prince/ss to Denmark, unless that person is officially deemed unfit or renounce his/her place.
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  #736  
Old 01-30-2017, 01:39 PM
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But the Constitution of Denmark refers to the heir to the throne as "Tronfřlger" instead of "Kronprins(esse)" and does not include regulations on his or her title.

In addition to Mbruno's informative post: In Spain, the Netherlands, and Belgium, there are titles which are conferred by royal decrees or acts of Parliament, but there are also courtesy titles like those of Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands or Infanta Alicia of Spain.
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