Non-British Styles and Titles

[pamk]

I believe King Juan Carlos has never been called, or has never been given the title of, Prince of Asturias. The last Prince of Asturias was Prince Alfonso, son of Alfonso XIII. Juan Carlos never had the title due to the course of events leading to the exile of his family, and with his designation as "Prince of Spain" (not "of Asturias") and as next king by Franco, instead of inheriting it.

So Queen Sofia has never been Princess of Asturias.

While on the subject of the SRF, I remember seeing a photograph of the invitation for the confirmation of Elena when she was young and she was listed as "Princess Elena of Spain and Greece" in Spanish (Espana y Grecia)

 

[RhapsodyBrat]

That is a bit incorrect, since the SRF is known as de Borbón y Grecia and not España y Grecia. This is so because the SRF goes by the dynastic name of the King, which is de Borbón, combined with Queen Sofia's name/title as Princess of Greece (and Hannover).

Although, if that invitation was released when Franco was still in power, then it may have been preferred to call Elena as Princess of Spain and Greece in keeping with JC's designation as Prince of Spain.

I do hope I am entirely correct.

 

[Next Star]

Another example is that of Prince Nikolaus of Liechtenstein and Princess Margaretha of Luxemourg. She is HRH Princess Margaretha, Princess of Liechtenstein, Princess of Luxembourg, Princess of Nassau,Princess of Parma, Countess Rietberg. Does anybody know otherwise?

All of those titles are correct except the countess one when I looked on wikipedia
I did not see that title but I saw the rest of the titles that you have listed
on your post.

 

[acdc1]

This is on the HRH Princess Theodora marrying the prince of Luxembourg.

If they divorced, would she then be known as "HRH Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark", since her courtesy title would be defunct (or something like that)?

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

She would probably be Theodora, Princess of Greece and Denmark until she remarried. The HRH style would probably be dropped, I think.

 

[kimebear]

Except for the fact that she is already known as HRH Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark in royal circles. Without going into a spinning debate about whether or not she actually holds the HRH style legally it is the style that is accorded to her by most of the European courts. The title Theodora, Princess of Greece and Denmark would imply that she is the divorced wife of Prince X of Greece and Denmark, not a Princess of Greece and Demark in her own right.

 

[Next Star]

Yeah, it was mentioned before, but the Luxembourg royals are HRH now, because of their connections to the Royal House of Parma. This came from the marriage of Grand Duchess Charlotte to some prince of Parma. Before that they were HGDH's.

His name was HRH Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma.

Okay say if two members of non reigning families married one head of a house and the other just a member of the former royal family ?
For instance the not so known princess signature I use and say Prince Nicholas of Greece and Denmark were to have childen which title would the children hold?

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

The children would, generally, inherit the title from the father. In most cases, children only inherit from the mother when she is a reigning Sovereign.

 

[Next Star]

I read that in the past born princess that married into the British royal family still were known by their husband's name and why is that?

Some monarchs are nice even to let princesses by marriage be know by their names rather than their husband names.

 

[Odette]

I had the impression that when a commoner marries a Prince she becomes Princess (his name) since she will remain a princess as long as she continues married to her prince. If there is a divorce she would lose the title.

 

[Next Star]

No we have a misunderstanding I am asking about born princesses meaning they held the title of princess before their marriage to their husbands but they still hold their husband name why is that?

 

[Odette]

No we have a misunderstanding I am asking about born princesses meaning they held the title of princess before their marriage to their husbands but they still hold their husband name why is that?

If a princess marries a commoner in real life she becomes Mrs So and So.
If she marries a prince of a foreign country she will be known as Princess of that country. For example Princess Alexia is known as Mrs Morales.
The King of Spain gave titles to both his sons in law so his daughters became Duchesses upon their marriages to them.
I think you ask why a princess loses her title if she marries a man of a lesser or no title while a prince can marry a commoner and make her a princess?? I guess there is discrimination going back a few centuries.

 

[Next Star]

Still no one is understanding my question I know about when princess marries a commoner she is known by her husband's name.This question has nothing to do that. I am asking why in British history did born princess to foriegn nations
that married British princes still hold their husband's name?
I though when a born princess marries a prince she gets to keep her name there
and just get her husband's title and not name.

 

[kimebear]

I think the simplest answer is plain tradition. Similar to a marriage where the wife takes her husbands last name. Through history, when a princess married a prince, she was seen as leaving her royal household and joining his, hence she would take his title over hers. It does not mean, however, that she lost her own title. Usually, she just did not officially use it again.

The overwhelming majority of houses allow a woman of any rank that marries into the house to take, as courtesy, the titles of the royal man she is marrying. Royal women do not share their titles with their husbands. The only exception I can think of to this rule (although I am sure there are more) is the Infantas of Spain who were given ducal titles upon their marriages and share them with their husbands. Usually men who marry royal women are given titles in their own right (Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Henrik, Prince Radu of Romania, etc.).

 

[DanielJDunn]

Questions About Titles

Hi, just joined and i just want to ask a few questions about some general things:

Are royal or noble houses legal, for instance do they have to be registered and accepted, like coats of arms? Or are they just spoken, if that's clear enough.

Could for instance a Baron create a noble house, like 'House of Something', or is it just restricted to higher nobility or even just royalty?

Also in terms of a royal or noble house names, if say the 'Duke of Somewhere' had 3 children a daughter and two sons, the eldest son would inherit the title could the other children be called 'Daniel of Somewhere' (not legally but just for a name). I ask this because many sons and daughters of titled men and women use their real name instead of the way it was presented in nobility years before. Or is this just a uncommon thing nowadays.

If a man without a title married an only daughter of a titled man, like 'Duke', would his title pass on through his daughters of titled and the man she married children? Or does it become extinct?

Thanks in advance for any answers.

 

[DanielJDunn]

Does anyone have any answers?

 

[kimebear]

If a man without a title married an only daughter of a titled man, like 'Duke', would his title pass on through his daughters of titled and the man she married children? Or does it become extinct?

It depends on the title. There are suo jure peeresses who inherit titles from their father and pass them on to their children. This doesn't grant any kind of title to her husband though.

Also in terms of a royal or noble house names, if say the 'Duke of Somewhere' had 3 children a daughter and two sons, the eldest son would inherit the title could the other children be called 'Daniel of Somewhere' (not legally but just for a name). I ask this because many sons and daughters of titled men and women use their real name instead of the way it was presented in nobility years before. Or is this just a uncommon thing nowadays.

I'm not sure I understand the question you are asking. Firstly, it depends on the country you are talking about. If you are talking about the UK, the other children of John Something, 14th Duke of Somewhere would be Lord James Something and Lady Jane Something.

 

[Count]

It depends on the title. There are suo jure peeresses who inherit titles from their father and pass them on to their children. This doesn't grant any kind of title to her husband though.



I'm not sure I understand the question you are asking. Firstly, it depends on the country you are talking about. If you are talking about the UK, the other children of John Something, 14th Duke of Somewhere would be Lord James Something and Lady Jane Something.

In Italy for example there are many possibilities:

Titles given from an Italian King
The Head of the House is the Prince or Duke of Somewhere, he is styled
Don Giovanni Something, Duca di Somewhere, Giovanni's sons/Daughters are Don Filippo (or Donna Claudia, if daughter) Something dei Duchi (of the Dukes) of Somewhere; if it is a Marquis, it will be: Nobile Filippo (or nobile Claudia) Something dei Marchesi di Somewhere.
All members of the family can be styled: Giovanni or Filippo Somewhere, or Something di Somewhere.

Titles given by an Holy Roman Emperor
These titles are given sometimes to all males, sometimes to all males and females, so there is no difference among them.

Titles can be granted only by the head of ruling families or former ruling families, that still have the right of "fons honorum".

 

[Next Star]

I know that Queen Elizabeth II bestowed that title on Prince Edward upon his marriage. Now, when he passes on, wouldn't the title revert back to the Crown? His father, the Duke, has said that his title will pass on to Edward when he dies, but I hear that the title will revert back to the Crown then the monarch (either his mother, his brother, or maybe even his nephew!) would give the title to Edward?

Anyway, nice little side comment about titles, I'm glad that Alexandra of Denmark (Prince Joachim's ex-wife, not the cousin) has been bestowed her own title of Countess. I'm still not clear if she is now a princess in her own right; it seems like it because I would think that since she's divorced from Prince Joachim, Queen Margarethe was under no obligation to let Alexandra continue to be a member of the Royal Family and/or retain her title. So I would think that she was made a princess in her own right and that her title of Her Highness is completely separate from her former title of Her Royal Highness.

The then Princess Alexandra of Denmark was not born a princess but was still styled a princess by the queen.She was given the title of countess after her divorce to Prince Joachim of Denmark along with the title princess before she had remarried.She lost her right to use the princess title and now she using her countess title by the way that title is non hereditary meaning if the countess has any children in future the title will not pass on with them this countess title will become extinct upon her death.

 

[Next Star]

The nobles have seen that have houses are high nobles like prince/princess or duke/duchess nothing lower than that.
We all know royal houses are headed by a queen or king and an imperial house like Japan is headed by an emperor
maybe someday an female emperor or better yet they allow her to hold the title of empress in her own right.

 

[Duchess Ravenna]

A capitalization question from a friend of the family who's writing a novel: which is correct, "I had dinner with the Queen of England" or "I had dinner with the queen of England"? Or just "The queen came to my house" or "The Queen came to my house."

Same for other titles: "He's the son of the Duke of Wartshire" or "He's the son of the duke of Wartshire."

Any help would be most appreciated, as I can't seem to find a definitive answer anywhere else. And maybe there isn't one.

 

[sgl]

I don't know for sure, Duchess Ravenna, but my guess is that when you say, "I had dinner with the Queen of England", the title is capitalized. If you are just saying something in the past tense without specifying the country, then my guess is that it would be, "The queen came to my house", because it is not said with the name of the land. I am not 100% sure, though. Perhaps a wiser person would know the definite answer. I would also imagine that it depended upon which queen you were writing about, and which language you are using. Each language has its own rules regarding titles and names.

 

[wbenson]

I believe that when one uses a definite article (as in "The Queen"), one capitalizes the title. Example: "The Queen and the Duke of Wartshire came over for breakfast, and then another duke and some viscounts came over for tea."

As with nearly everything in English, though, you will find different style guides recommending different things.

 

[Iain]

You find that the British press tend to use capitals when refering to British royalty but often doesn't use them when speaking about foriegn royals. One of the top papers when reporting the visit of the King and Queen of Norway to Britain always used capitals when speaking about Queen Elizabeth, the Duke of Edinburgh or Prince Charles but always refered to the visiting royals as king Hararld and queen Sonja. A friend knows a reporter on the paper and when she asked him why they did this the reply she got was "all British papers do that." When she asked why he said "because everyone knows that only the British royal family are real royalty, the rest are not." When my friend said that this was rubbish the reporter said "no it's not, it's always been that way, foriegn kings and queens are not real royalty." At that, my friend gave up trying to reason with him. Sadly, I've met a few British royalists who hold the same belief.

 

[RoyalProtocol]

Debretts advises always use capitals liberally and if in doubu capatilize even in the middle of a sentence e.g. "The Queen" "HRH The Prince of Wales" "The Prince Philip" "Her Majesty The Queen of The Netherlands" "we met The Prince of Orange" "I spoke to Princess Letizia"

Foreign royals are treated exactly like British ones.

 

[Duchess Ravenna]

Wow, great advice, and all over the lot, as I expected. I guess I'll just tell the friend to go with her instinct (she likes to capitalize the Queen and the Duke when referring specifically, lower-case when not). But thanks to all of you!

 

[Next Star]

Say a princess who is head of house marries a prince who is also head of a house what title will she be known by the one before her marriage or will she be known by her husband's title?

 

[Menarue]

A question about Italian titles or styles. A great-grand-aunt of mine married an Italian Count (he must have been thought so important that no one can remember his name in the family) well his brother was also styled count, and I have seen this a few times the sons of a Marquess or Count all being called by the same title as their father, but sometimes with an "ino" on the end, is this just a respectful and non-meaningful way of addressing these noble offspring?

 

[magnik]

I hope that it help somehow Menarue
Nobility of Italy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia specially links below.

 

[Menarue]

Thanks Magnik, at least it seems to explain why all the titled Italians I have met are Counts.