The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1  
Old 07-07-2011, 01:00 PM
PrincessKaimi's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hilo, Malibu, United States
Posts: 1,319
Nobility, Aristocracy and Titles

I'm having trouble understanding the history and etymology of various titles, such as earl, count, duke, marquis, etc. I seem to have a jumble of English and French titles in my mind.

I'm back to 1066 and the Norman conquest, and I can't tell (yet) what titles William the Conqueror bestowed upon the Norman overlords when he carved up England. Did he import the term "duke" or was it already in use in Anglo-Saxon England? Were there dukes at that time? When I read about the 1100's and 1200's, I see mostly Earls in England (and duchies seem to be in France - Kings Richard and John are Dukes of Normandy, etc.)

I guess I'm asking several questions. When did the title "duke" (from the Latin) appear in England and which dukedoms were earliest? Where does the word "earl" come from, is it Saxon? Are there counts in England or no (ever)? I know marquis is mainly in France, but Italy and Spain have cognate terms - so I'm guessing that's from days when Latin was prevelant - and that term never made it to England.

The word that the Welsh use for their highest lords is translated into English as Prince (anyone know what the etymology of Prince is?) I think I understand why, although any illumination on that point would be welcome.

As I lay awake pondering all this, I decided that it would be silly not to avail myself of the venerable expertise that is The Royal Forums. Some of you will understand what I'm trying to get at (a history of royal terminology in England, I guess) and I just know that some of you already know this, extensively.

Thanks in advance for your help. I figure I'm not the only one who could use a refresher in these matters. I also feel like I'm leaving out some titles altogether. (Squire?) I know "knight" is at the bottom of the titles, right?
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-07-2011, 01:49 PM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,118
The best source for fairly definitive answers to these sorts of questions is heraldica.org

These links are very informative:

A Glossary of European Noble, Princely, Royal and Imperial Titles
Royal Styles

Styles of the Members of the British Royal Family

This site is also very useful:

British Titles of Nobility - An Introduction and Primer to the Peerage


lots of interesting reading!
.
__________________

__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-07-2011, 02:10 PM
PrincessKaimi's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hilo, Malibu, United States
Posts: 1,319
Thank you, Warren. If I were a gambling woman, I'd have bet you knew the resources! I'm going to have a great afternoon and evening - it's all so interesting.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-10-2011, 05:05 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Brooklyn, United States
Posts: 13
Nobility in European monarchies

Can anyone help me understand what the rules are for European monarchies on granting noble titles? I know each country is different, and that usually it is a royal perogative, but I'd like to know what the rules are for each country, since some (like the Scandinavian countries) give them only to royals while others like Britain seem to have given them away like cheap gum.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-30-2011, 11:24 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,262
I think only the UK, Spain and Belgium still create new peerages outside of the royal family.
In the UK new peerages are for the life of the holder and are not hereditary (except those for the RF). Life peerages are recommended by the government. Not sure what the mechanism is in Spain or Belgium.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-24-2011, 09:43 PM
Emperor Roku XIV's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Somewhere, Canada
Posts: 29
I wish they would start bestowing them in Canada again. Canadians can't have titles, apparently.
__________________
- Supreme Lord and Emperor of the Flood
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-04-2013, 07:32 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 184
The Peerage (and other non-Royal hereditary titles in monarchies)

I'm a fan of having a King or Queen, but:

What's the benefit to a country's population in general of having a Peerage (in the UK) or the like: when hereditary titles are given to people who aren't members of a Royal Family?

Do all European monarchies have such a thing, or only the UK?

And why do democratic governments go along with giving hereditary titles to people who aren't Royals?

Thanks.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-04-2013, 07:48 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,839
The British no longer give hereditary peerages out to non-royals. Instead they give out life peerages to individuals who've achieved some sort of greatness.

In the old days it was in the interest of the government to give out hereditary peerages because those individuals sat in the House of Lords. It was also in the interest of the monarch because it was a way to bestow honours on friends and those who had done a service to them.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-04-2013, 08:24 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homme View Post
PM Thatcher created hereditary peers during her time in office, these peerages were the last hereditary peerages created by a PM.
Peerages are not created by a PM, they are created by the monarch (often at the advice of the PM, but it's still not them doing the creating).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-04-2013, 08:53 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,262
In the UK we now only confer life peerages who are entitled to sit in the House of Lords. Almost all of the hereditary peers have been removed from the House of Lords.
Both Belgium and Spain continue to award peerages, both life and hereditary. Norway has never had its own peerage. Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands have a titled nobility but new titles are not awarded outside of their royal families. The Vatican used to award titles of nobility but I believe that ended with Paul VI.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-04-2013, 08:58 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,839
I believe - although I could be wrong - that the only hereditary peers who now sit in the House of Lords are people who were created hereditary peers themselves (they didn't inherit it), and then had a life peerage bestowed upon them when the House was reformed.

Or is that completely wrong?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-04-2013, 09:25 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Really, why don't you move to where they have these. Our forefathers knew how destructive this was. But, perhaps, you were born in a different nation. What Republics give "Heredity Titles"?
I stated that "democratic governments" give hereditary titles.

Are you stating that only republics-not monarchies-are "democratic governments"? I didn't state that. Northern European monarchies in many respects rank higher in democratic-ness than many republics do.

To everyone else, thanks- very useful info.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-04-2013, 09:37 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,839
Many constitutional monarchies are categorized as the most democratic countries in the world - above the US. However that doesn't stop Countess from attacking monarchies and those who support them.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-04-2013, 09:54 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spring Hill, United States
Posts: 2,318
If you wish to live in a monarchy, so be it. I have no problem. Canada is not a monarchy. If you live here an enjoy the benefits thereof, and respect how we got here, so be it. I have no problem with either. It is not an attack. It is a statement. Millions of people have come to this country to live otherwise. Our founding fathers saw the difficulty and the waste. As this is a "free country", if you want to live under a monarchy, go and do that. There are many wonderful nations you can do that in.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-04-2013, 10:01 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,262
Where did you ever get the idea that Canada is not a monarchy? The last time I checked the Canadian head of State is HM Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada. The armed forces include the Royal Canadian Navy and the Royal Canadian Air Force. Several army regiments include the term Royal and many have members of the royal family as Colonels in Chief. To become a citizen of Canada one must swear an oath of Allegiance to HM The Queen of Canada, her heirs and successors. It all seems very monarchic to me. Indeed Canadians often point to the monarchy as one of the differentiating factors between Canada and the US.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-04-2013, 10:12 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spring Hill, United States
Posts: 2,318
You are correct in essence. I have many Canadian friends who see this as an aberration of their freedom and that it is only a formality. One recently said that to me. On that portion I have no argument, as you are correct. Perhaps, when the queen dies it will be different.
.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-04-2013, 10:43 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,262
Perhaps Countess but there is no real Republican movement in Canada, and constitutional chnage in Canada is incredibly difficuly and even moreso when it involves the monarchy. I am not sure what freedoms your friends feel denied of since Canada generally ranks amongst the most democratic and free nations in the world.
One of the outstanding points of the monarchy in Canada is that the monarchs representatives are actually more representative of societies diversity than the elected representatives...women, blacks, Asians, native Canadians, visible minorities having held the top job federally or in the provinces as the monarchs representatives long before any would be elected to such offices.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-16-2013, 08:27 PM
Dman's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 5,607
Want to be a Duchess? Of course you do...
Mary Dudley gives you her guide to desirable duchessing...
Want to be a Duchess? Of course you do... - Tatler
__________________
"The truth, I think, is always fair even if it hurts. But misrepresentation, is to me, injustice. It isn't fair, so therefore it is not digestible."

The Honourable Frances Shand Kydd
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-24-2013, 10:43 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,118
Discussion of earlier creations of the Duke of Gloucester has been moved to the British Forums thread
Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies & Royal Ducal Titles.

Posts discussing Prince Adolphus of Teck have been moved to another British Forums thread,
Princess Mary Adelaide, Duchess of Teck & Family.
.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-28-2013, 09:48 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Conneaut, United States
Posts: 689
Laszlo Szechenyi was a Hungarian count (Grof) by birth.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
etymology, nobility, nobles, nomenclature, royal titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth birthday bourbon-parma camilla charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria danish royals engagement fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume hohenzollern infanta elena king abdullah king abdullah ii king albert ii king carl xvi gustav king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander olympic games picture thread pom pregnancy prince albert prince albert ii prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince frederik prince henrik prince joachim prince laurent princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess charlene daytime fashion princess haya princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess marie princess mary princess maxima queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia state visit wedding willem-alexander william


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:09 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]