Keeping a title after the divorce

[sesa]

This was the way it was explained to me when I was wondering about royal titles.
Titles are just like legal names for commoners. When you marry, usually, the wife takes on the husbands name. When they divorce, there is nothing that says they have to legally revert back to their madien name, so they are still legally know as Princess whatever, even though they are not legally a princess. Just like when commoners divorce, they go from a Mrs. back to a Ms. but the last name remains the same as the husbands. For Royalty, they loose the HRH but keep the title since it is part of the name. They are legally no longer "royal" unless they came from a royal bloodline themselves, and have no legal claim to the title, but they are still known as Princess of whatever since that is what they were formally known as these.
Not sure if I explained it correctly, but this is how is was explained to me, so it could be right, it could be very wrong. But it made sense to me!

[Lady Marmalade]

I think it makes sense as well.

For everything that had happened during the divorce, the one thing that made sense to me is why and how COULD SHE KEEP the HRH, when in fact it was only a part of the title for the duration of her marriage and if she became a widow.

I could see her keeping her title but it made sense not to be able to use HRH.

I just thought of something.

Princess Michael could also go back to her title of Baroness as that is what she was before she married.

But knowing her...she would keep the Princess title.... :)

I know I would...

So, when the Dukes of the Blood Royal die and their sons inherit their titles of Duke of Gloucester and Kent, that means they will be addressed as Your Grace, taking the style and rank of a Duke in the peerage, as the sons are not HRH.

[sesa]

Originally Posted by Emilia

I know it is not the same , but Queen Fabiola also hold her title " Queen" , instead of to become Princess , afther the death of King Boudewijn .

Does somebody knows why ?

Just because her husband died does not mean that she is demoted to a lower rank of Princess. She is still a queen in her own right since she was married to the King. Just like when commoners are married and the spouse dies, they are still known as "Mrs." Whatever. They do not revert back to Ms. or Miss because they are not single. They are widowed, hence keeping the "Mrs." .

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade

I think it makes sense as well.

For everything that had happened during the divorce, the one thing that made sense to me is why and how COULD SHE KEEP the HRH, when in fact it was only a part of the title for the duration of her marriage and if she became a widow.

I could see her keeping her title but it made sense not to be able to use HRH.

I just thought of something.

Princess Michael could also go back to her title of Baroness as that is what she was before she married.

But knowing her...she would keep the Princess title.... :)

I know I would...

So, when the Dukes of the Blood Royal die and their sons inherit their titles of Duke of Gloucester and Kent, that means they will be addressed as Your Grace, taking the style and rank of a Duke in the peerage, as the sons are not HRH.

The idea of being "commoner" is in the UK much stricter than in other countries with a monarchy. While in most countries the whole family of an aristocrat is considered "noble", in the UK only the head of the family is a "peer", all the others are "commoners".

The daughters take their "Precedence" - that is their social position - from their father. Daughters are thus ranked higher than second sons. That's why the daughter of an earl is styled "Lady", but a second brother would only be "The Honorable Mr."

When daughters marry a man higher in rank, they share his place in the order of precedence and take on his name.

Eg. The ficticious Lady Carina Plum, daughter of the earl of Marmelade marries the earl of Jam. Now she is The Countess of Jam, called Lady Jam.

Lady Carina married the brother of Lord Jam, the Honorable Mr. Keith
Cherry. Now she would be Lady Carina Cherry while he stays Mr. Keith Cherry.

Lady Carina marries Mr. Nobody. Then she is Lady Carina Nobody.

Lady Carina marries Lord Edward Apricot, second son of the duke of Jelly who is higher in rank than her. Now she is Lady Edward Apricot.

If Lady Carina was the daughter of a duke herself, her rank would be higher than Lord Edward's (because she shares her father's rank who is a peer). Now she could decide if she wanted to become The Lady Edward or stay The Lady Carina. She would have to take into account which dukedom was older - that of her father of that of Jelly.

On becoming Lord Jams widow she would still be the Countess of Jam if the next earl was not yet married. If her son is the next earl of Jam and is already married, she would be "The Dowager Countess of Jam". If the next earl was the son from her late husband's first marriage, she would be Carina, countess of Jam, but still be called Lady Jam. She would still be considered a countess in the order of precedence.

The last thing applies to divorcees as well. Except that they loose the precedence they shared with their husbands. Thus both Diana and Fergie lost the HRH-style, because they never were "Royal Highnesses" in their own right, but only sharing their husband's Royal Titles. They used the widow's "name" from then on: Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. If Charles had died while Diana was still married to him, Prince William would have advanced to the title "The Prince of Wales". Diana would have been "The Dowager Princess of Wales" on keeping her HRH-style.

After her divorce, Diana could have gone back to her old title of "Lady" IIRC. She was correctly Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor, princess of Wales. In short Diana Wales. To avoid any problems, people were asked to address her as "Madam", which is an address that can be used with any lady of higher rank. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor had no own style from her father, she is Mrs. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor, duchess of York.

In my opinion the queen should have done something about that, maybe make Sarah into a "dame" at least or give her her own title as Lady Something... Queen Beatrix was more careful: she made her new daughter-in-law Maxima into a "Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange" in her own right, along with the style HRH. So even if The Prince of Orange divorced Princess Maxima, she still would be HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands.

Hope I recall all that correctly from a list where "precedence" was widely discussed...

[Princess Robijn]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

The idea of being "commoner" is in the UK much stricter than in other countries with a monarchy. While in most countries the whole family of an aristocrat is considered "noble", in the UK only the head of the family is a "peer", all the others are "commoners".

The daughters take their "Precedence" - that is their social position - from their father. Daughters are thus ranked higher than second sons. That's why the daughter of an earl is styled "Lady", but a second brother would only be "The Honorable Mr."

When daughters marry a man higher in rank, they share his place in the order of precedence and take on his name.

Eg. The ficticious Lady Carina Plum, daughter of the earl of Marmelade marries the earl of Jam. Now she is The Countess of Jam, called Lady Jam.

Lady Carina married the brother of Lord Jam, the Honorable Mr. Keith
Cherry. Now she would be Lady Carina Cherry while he stays Mr. Keith Cherry.

Lady Carina marries Mr. Nobody. Then she is Lady Carina Nobody.

Lady Carina marries Lord Edward Apricot, second son of the duke of Jelly who is higher in rank than her. Now she is Lady Edward Apricot.

If Lady Carina was the daughter of a duke herself, her rank would be higher than Lord Edward's (because she shares her father's rank who is a peer). Now she could decide if she wanted to become The Lady Edward or stay The Lady Carina. She would have to take into account which dukedom was older - that of her father of that of Jelly.

On becoming Lord Jams widow she would still be the Countess of Jam if the next earl was not yet married. If her son is the next earl of Jam and is already married, she would be "The Dowager Countess of Jam". If the next earl was the son from her late husband's first marriage, she would be Carina, countess of Jam, but still be called Lady Jam. She would still be considered a countess in the order of precedence.

The last thing applies to divorcees as well. Except that they loose the precedence they shared with their husbands. Thus both Diana and Fergie lost the HRH-style, because they never were "Royal Highnesses" in their own right, but only sharing their husband's Royal Titles. They used the widow's "name" from then on: Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. If Charles had died while Diana was still married to him, Prince William would have advanced to the title "The Prince of Wales". Diana would have been "The Dowager Princess of Wales" on keeping her HRH-style.

After her divorce, Diana could have gone back to her old title of "Lady" IIRC. She was correctly Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor, princess of Wales. In short Diana Wales. To avoid any problems, people were asked to address her as "Madam", which is an address that can be used with any lady of higher rank. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor had no own style from her father, she is Mrs. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor, duchess of York.

In my opinion the queen should have done something about that, maybe make Sarah into a "dame" at least or give her her own title as Lady Something... Queen Beatrix was more careful: she made her new daughter-in-law Maxima into a "Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange" in her own right, along with the style HRH. So even if The Prince of Orange divorced Princess Maxima, she still would be HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands.

Hope I recall all that correctly from a list where "precedence" was widely discussed...

HRH Princess Máxima title is Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Mrs van Amsberg, she isn't the Princess of Orange, because of the fact that only the firstborn of the king/queen will have the title Prince(ss) of Orange..
so If Willem-Alexander becomes king, Catharina-Amalia will be the Princess of Orange..

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Princess Robijn

HRH Princess Máxima title is Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Mrs van Amsberg, she isn't the Princess of Orange, because of the fact that only the firstborn of the king/queen will have the title Prince(ss) of Orange..
so If Willem-Alexander becomes king, Catharina-Amalia will be the Princess of Orange..

The above titles Maxima has been granted in her own right are correct, but she is also Princess of Orange by virtue of her marriage. Just as Letizia is Princess of the Asturias and Diana was Princess of Wales by virtue of their marriages. If and when Willem-Alexander becomes King she will cease to be Princess of Orange because she will be the Queen (Consort) of the Netherlands, and the title will devolve to their eldest child.

In the current era of gender equality it will be interesting to see if Catharina-Amalia's future husband receives the title of Prince of Orange as the spouse of the title-holder, or if equality of titles is only reserved for female spouses.

[Princess Robijn]

I don't believe the future husband of Princess Catharina-Amalia will get the title of prince of orange..

[Marengo]

Me neither Princess Robijn, the court want to use it only for the heir. Maxima is never referred to as The Princess of Orange on any official document or on the website of the court etc. It is always HRH The Prince of Orange and HRH Princess Maxima (of The Netherlands) (they don't use crownprince(ss) either btw).

[Little_star]

I'm not sure of the particulars but Princess Firyal still uses her title as a prncess when carrying out some of her charity work. Would this have been agreed upon when she divorced her husband?

[btsnyder]

Originally Posted by sesa

Just because her husband died does not mean that she is demoted to a lower rank of Princess. She is still a queen in her own right since she was married to the King. Just like when commoners are married and the spouse dies, they are still known as "Mrs." Whatever. They do not revert back to Ms. or Miss because they are not single. They are widowed, hence keeping the "Mrs." .

Does anyone know what Dutch dowager queens consort are called (it's been so long since there was one!). Unlike other European monarchies, the Netherlands has a tradition of abdication and I know that Queen Juliana reverted to the title of princess after her daughter Beatrix became queen. If Willem-Alexander assumes the throne and pre-deceases Maxima, will she continue to be referred to as Queen when her daughter assumes the throne? If Willem-Alexander abdicates the throne at a certain age (like his grandmother), will he and Maxima revert to the style of prince and princess? I imagine they couldn't revert to the Prince and Princess of Orange titles, since those titles will be for Catherina-Amalia's eldest. Any thoughts?

[Marengo]

There are no rules about it. Juliana and Wilhelmina chose the title of Princess, though technically they could have kept the title 'Queen' (like the abdicated King Leopold of Belgium). As the ladies were pragmatic they thought it would only create confusion.
It is not know if WA and Maxima will revert to prince and princess after a possible abdication, there re no fixd rules for that, though it is expected as there is a precedent. They will not revert to the prince of Orange as that title is for the heir.
Now, it is still unclear if Maxima will be styled as Queen. The gouverment did not want to decide about this when the couple married but members of parliament were making remarks that it was odd that the consort of a Queen is a prince and the consort of a King is a Queen. Some people wanted to get equal rules for this as well. But this is something for the (not to far) future.

[btsnyder]

Thanks, Marengo - very interesting! Another example of the Dutch always striving to do the right thing - I love it.

[Lisele]

Originally Posted by Warren

I trust the subject of Diana is not going to take over this thread.

Here is Ysbel's original question:

Are there any other royal divorces where the wife kept the title or gave it up?

W

it's hard not for Diana to take over this thread since hers was the spectacular and most publicized divorce. Most royal divorces were kept quiet before hers. Thanks for reminding us of the original question :)

Royal titles are like normal common titles. If a woman divorces her husband and doesn't legally change back to her maiden name, she would be known as Mrs. Mary Smith. A good example is Camilla. She never changed her name back to Camilla Shand so she was always known as Mrs. Camilla Parker-Bowles.

[Lisele]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

The idea of being "commoner" is in the UK much stricter than in other countries with a monarchy. While in most countries the whole family of an aristocrat is considered "noble", in the UK only the head of the family is a "peer", all the others are "commoners".

The daughters take their "Precedence" - that is their social position - from their father. Daughters are thus ranked higher than second sons. That's why the daughter of an earl is styled "Lady", but a second brother would only be "The Honorable Mr."

When daughters marry a man higher in rank, they share his place in the order of precedence and take on his name.

Eg. The ficticious Lady Carina Plum, daughter of the earl of Marmelade marries the earl of Jam. Now she is The Countess of Jam, called Lady Jam.

Lady Carina married the brother of Lord Jam, the Honorable Mr. Keith
Cherry. Now she would be Lady Carina Cherry while he stays Mr. Keith Cherry.

Lady Carina marries Mr. Nobody. Then she is Lady Carina Nobody.

Lady Carina marries Lord Edward Apricot, second son of the duke of Jelly who is higher in rank than her. Now she is Lady Edward Apricot.

If Lady Carina was the daughter of a duke herself, her rank would be higher than Lord Edward's (because she shares her father's rank who is a peer). Now she could decide if she wanted to become The Lady Edward or stay The Lady Carina. She would have to take into account which dukedom was older - that of her father of that of Jelly.

On becoming Lord Jams widow she would still be the Countess of Jam if the next earl was not yet married. If her son is the next earl of Jam and is already married, she would be "The Dowager Countess of Jam". If the next earl was the son from her late husband's first marriage, she would be Carina, countess of Jam, but still be called Lady Jam. She would still be considered a countess in the order of precedence.

The last thing applies to divorcees as well. Except that they loose the precedence they shared with their husbands. Thus both Diana and Fergie lost the HRH-style, because they never were "Royal Highnesses" in their own right, but only sharing their husband's Royal Titles. They used the widow's "name" from then on: Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. If Charles had died while Diana was still married to him, Prince William would have advanced to the title "The Prince of Wales". Diana would have been "The Dowager Princess of Wales" on keeping her HRH-style.

After her divorce, Diana could have gone back to her old title of "Lady" IIRC. She was correctly Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor, princess of Wales. In short Diana Wales. To avoid any problems, people were asked to address her as "Madam", which is an address that can be used with any lady of higher rank. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor had no own style from her father, she is Mrs. Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor, duchess of York.

In my opinion the queen should have done something about that, maybe make Sarah into a "dame" at least or give her her own title as Lady Something... Queen Beatrix was more careful: she made her new daughter-in-law Maxima into a "Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange" in her own right, along with the style HRH. So even if The Prince of Orange divorced Princess Maxima, she still would be HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands.

Hope I recall all that correctly from a list where "precedence" was widely discussed...

I love the edible examples :) Well done :)