Bowing and Curtseying - Page 22

Vanishing Lady · #**421** 12-03-2007, 08:54 PM

Would I curtsey to Camilla? Yes -- as a sign of deference to her seniority and rank over me in age AND station in life. I was raised to be polite. As for Cherie Blair, who did she think she was fooling, acting Bolshie when she was married to Mr. Establishment-Dressed-In-Labour-Clothes? Please.

To me, curtseying has less to do with how I personally feel about someone and more to do with their rank. I'm sure some women through history have curtsied to those whom they hated more than poison but still outranked them.

Anyway...

From the BBC - Stella, youger sister of Kathy Houston, curtsies to the Duchess of Kent at Royal Alexandra School, 1943.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/berkshire/histo...chool_main.jpg

National Museum of Australia, Canberra - Lady Being Presented to Queen Elizabeth II at a Garden Party, 1954

https://www.nma.gov.au/shared/librar...tey%201954.jpg

Archives of Ontario - Mrs. McKay curtsies to Queen Elizabeth II, 1959

http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/englis...curtsey_lg.jpg

Philippe Egalite' · #**422** 12-06-2007, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanishing Lady

Would I curtsey to Camilla? Yes -- as a sign of deference to her seniority and rank over me in age AND station in life. I was raised to be polite.

How each of us expresses deference to age and rank differs widely by upbringing, family/local/national culture, and education.
Not curtsying to royalty in no way equates to being impolite. Conversely, being polite does not necessitate curtsying.
I do not know your definition of station in life but I choose Tennessee Williams's, "A high station in life is something earned by the gallantry with which appalling experiences are survived with grace". Indeed, your station may be higher than everybody else's without your knowing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanishing Lady

As for Cherie Blair, who did she think she was fooling, acting Bolshie when she was married to Mr. Establishment-Dressed-In-Labour-Clothes? Please.

Refusing to curtsy to royalty doesn't mean one is acting Bolshie, and peoples' positions and principles must be mutually respected, at all times.
Baroness Thatcher and Mr Tony Blair were the best things that happened to the UK in the last 25 years. Indeed, there has been a tremendous economic transformation during his tenure and it is to his credit, that he had the courage to transcend ideologic stereotypes and apply Thatcherian neoliberal policies to the benefit of the British people.

Philippe Egalite' · #**423** 12-06-2007, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalProtocol

Would YOU curtsey to Camilla? | the Daily Mail
Mrs. Gordon Brown curtseys to HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and accompanying article from the Daily Mail.

Well, the Daily Mail's question sounds more like a pseudo-dilemma, the usual media hoopla when there are no real news around.

It is true that when curtsying to royalty, a lot of people also express emotion(s), their personal feelings toward that personage [admiration etc]. Technically, however, curtsying, bowing etc has more to do with paying homage to an office or position one holds, rather than the individual per se.

If, by ideological conviction, one believes that no man should curtsy to another human being [as is the case with Mrs Blair], then she shouldn't and, by the way, this in no way means or implies that that person is necessarily of anti-monarchist persuasion. If on the other hand, one is convinced that curtsying to a Head of a State, the symbol of a State, is appropriate, then, personal feelings should not interfere with this decision.
Curtsying [or not curtsying] should not stand in lieu of assessment, reward vs."punihsment", approval vs. disapproval of a monarch or dynast by the citizen.

andrew · #**424** 02-20-2008, 03:48 PM

A very nice gesture from Natalie Portman!

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...e-portman1.jpg

andrew · #**425** 02-25-2008, 04:29 PM

I don't know whether this picture was posted or not.
Princess Anne curtsying to king Harald at Lillehammer.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...B15_034362.jpg

Picture from photoshot!

KingJosh · #**426** 02-29-2008, 10:52 AM

Now I know that the UN has said all Heads of state are equal but in private Royal circles would a Grand Ducal Highness or Serene Highness bow/curtsey to a Royal Highness, Majesty regardless of their status in a country?

**TheTruth** · #**427** 02-29-2008, 11:05 AM

Even if I'm not one of their subject, I would feel embarrassed to not curtesy or bow at a member of a Royal Family, especially if they are older than me. I think they need to be respected since not all wished to rule and take responsibility of a whole country.

madeleine victoria · #**428** 03-02-2008, 06:58 AM

Honestly, even if we don't have monarch, I would gladly curtsey to him/her. I don't know maybe I'm just thrilled to know what's the feeling when you do that. You don't have to curtsey to the president and I will never do that to our own president :p I'm really hoping that the Spanish royals will visit our country then should I have the chance to meet them, I would curtsey. For once in my life I want to experience that.. That would be totally cool!!!

Australian · #**429** 03-02-2008, 07:08 AM

I would feel uneasy bowing to royalty. We are all equal, no one person is better than the other. We are all worth just as much as the next person.

KingJosh · #**430** 03-03-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Australian

I would feel uneasy bowing to royalty. We are all equal, no one person is better than the other. We are all worth just as much as the next person.

With all do respect how are we all equals? Isn't that why they are Royals and why we are commoners

? If we were all equal then there wouldn't be different social classes and statuses.

**GlitteringTiaras** · #**431** 03-03-2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJosh

With all do respect how are we all equals? Isn't that why they are Royals and why we are commoners

?

Yes, but in a majority of societies today deem this notion of "royalty are above the rest" Divine Right as an archaic thought. Sure class and caste systems are still around, but most countries, which have a royal family, bow and curtsey out of respect rather than believing they are lower than royals are.

This whole class system, specifically royalty, eons ago was created out of necessity; which kept order within society. As time went on it became a tradition. Now, in the 21st century some modern societies, with a royal family, like the idea of having them around. Why? Nationalism and cultural identity... plain and simple.

Quote:

If we were all equal then there wouldn't be different social classes and statuses.

That may be true in some societies today, but not all specifically if we are talking about the super-power nations (minus China).

Do you honestly believe royals are above you in every sense of the word, in this day and age? Do you believe in the idea of Divine Right? I certainly don't. In my opinion, royals are simply born lucky. Born into luxury, not power (at least not anymore) in the true definition of the word. While others earn their way to the top, royals are born there. Do they deserve that position more than us who've earned it? Heavens, no. They're not better than I am nor are they smarter. Sadly, for them they live in a very isolated bubble, which they cannot get away from no matter how hard they try. Does their position that make them special? No, not in my view. It makes them prisoners of; again, archaic system kept going by tradition. There's nothing wrong with it, but by no means are they better than you, I, or Joe Schmo... far from it in fact.

Australian · #**432** 03-03-2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlitteringTiaras

Do you honestly believe royals are above you in every sense of the word, in this day and age? Do you believe in the idea of Divine Right? I certainly don't. In my opinion, royals are simply born lucky. Born into luxury, not power (at least not anymore) in the true definition of the word. While others earn their way to the top, royals are born there. Do they deserve that position more than us who've earned it? Heavens, no. They're not better than I am nor are they smarter. Sadly, for them they live in a very isolated bubble, which they cannot get away from no matter how hard they try. Does their position that make them special? No, not in my view. It makes them prisoners of; again, archaic system kept going by tradition. There's nothing wrong with it, but by no means are they better than you, I, or Joe Schmo... far from it in fact.

I completely agree with this. This is what i was meaning. KingJosh, I could never believe that for example, my best friend or family members are not as equal or better than royals, just simply because they are royals. As I said, i believe everyone is equal and should enjoy the same privelleges and enjoy the same level of human respect and worth.

Oh, and royals are not better then commoners, why would you think that? at least in my opinion!

KingJosh · #**433** 03-03-2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Do you honestly believe royals are above you in every sense of the word, in this day and age?

I guess you could call me old fashioned or just nuts but yes I do belive that they are higher then me, in Social class and status. I belive that god has put them their for a reason, to rule and it is at his will that they do so. All the chances that the UK has had to abolish the monarchy and they never have now call me crazy but I personaly think it's cuase god won't allow it.

Quote:

Does their position that make them special?

In my opinion it does, she is just as special as any other Head of State. another thing that makes them special is that the royal family has been around for centuries much longer then most democracies. What makes the position of being Royal special is that it can't be earned or bought.

Quote:

I could never believe that for example, my best friend or family members are not as equal or better than royals, just simply because they are royals.

I'm not trying to say that the Royal Families are better then me i'm saying they are above me, if that makes sense

I guess it's all in how you look at it or how you've been brought up.

Madame Royale · #**434** 03-04-2008, 12:35 AM

Quote:

I belive that god has put them their for a reason

I believe 'accident' by birth has put them where they are, or, a change in succession.

Unless God slides down on what must be a very long balustrade, I can't see how his will, can make or break the British monarchy when in England, you have an entirely diverse religious ideology.

Though associated to state through all succeeding monarchs since King Henry VIII being Supreme Governor's of the Mother Church of the worldwide Anglican Communion, does not, in my opinion, make the institution's fundamental being any devine right.

Though while they may feel, and the Queen certainly does, that her relationship with God is of the utmost importance, and has a sound relationship with the Lord, I would stop short of saying Elizabeth thinks herself God's worldly representative. I mean, she may, but to what extent is questionable.

To say God won't allow it is not something I'd expect the almighty to do. He lays the foundation's, though it is us who pave the way.

ladyfizzle101 · #**435** 03-04-2008, 02:57 AM

me honestly, i have respect for heads of state. but i would never curtsy to them. i wont curtsy to my president so why would i cursty to someone elses head of state. i would show them respect by addressing them with "you majesty or your highness". if anything they should bow to us cuz we pay their wages lol

**kimebear** · #**436** 03-04-2008, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJosh

Now I know that the UN has said all Heads of state are equal but in private Royal circles would a Grand Ducal Highness or Serene Highness bow/curtsey to a Royal Highness, Majesty regardless of their status in a country?

All heads of state are equal. His Serene Highness Prince Albert of Monaco would not bow to His Royal Highness Grand Duke Henri of Luxembourg who would not bow to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II who would not curtsey to His Imperial Majesty Emperor Akihito, etc etc.

I have questioned whether or not His Royal Highness Prince Andrew would bow to His Imperial Highness Prince Akishino, or a similar pairing, but I have not found a satisfactory answer. In theory, the answer is yes, but in practice I don't know.

KingJosh · #**437** 03-04-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimebear

All heads of state are equal. His Serene Highness Prince Albert of Monaco would not bow to His Royal Highness Grand Duke Henri of Luxembourg who would not bow to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II who would not curtsey to His Imperial Majesty Emperor Akihito, etc etc.

I have questioned whether or not His Royal Highness Prince Andrew would bow to His Imperial Highness Prince Akishino, or a similar pairing, but I have not found a satisfactory answer. In theory, the answer is yes, but in practice I don't know.

Thank you for the answer kimebear.