Bowing and Curtseying


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Although it was not called genuflecting, in the Middle Ages men did often make a deeper obeisance to royalty, especially the king and queen. It was similar to a cursty but no holding out the skirts. It was literally going down on one knee and looking at the floor. But no crossing yourself like when genuflecting. Obviously we don't know all the ins and outs of when this was done and when one simply bowed. But to take one example, I imagine that if someone had an audience with the king and bent the knee on first meeting him, he would not then do it again when the king left but would simply bow.

We see traces of 'bending the knee' still to this day. When a man is knighted he does it, and when he proposes to his girlfriend that is what he is supposed to do. (You read 'he went down on his knees, but it is supposed to be one knee only, he's pleading not begging lol!)
 
Although it was not called genuflecting, in the Middle Ages men did often make a deeper obeisance to royalty, especially the king and queen. It was similar to a cursty but no holding out the skirts. It was literally going down on one knee and looking at the floor. But no crossing yourself like when genuflecting. Obviously we don't know all the ins and outs of when this was done and when one simply bowed. But to take one example, I imagine that if someone had an audience with the king and bent the knee on first meeting him, he would not then do it again when the king left but would simply bow.

We see traces of 'bending the knee' still to this day. When a man is knighted he does it, and when he proposes to his girlfriend that is what he is supposed to do. (You read 'he went down on his knees, but it is supposed to be one knee only, he's pleading not begging lol!)
There are records from the early 1800s showing that in my parts of Southern Sweden the peasants went down on their knee when greeting a member of the nobility.
 
Wow I didn't know this thread was here so I'm just catching up. ?

I was taught to curtsey and genuflect by my grandmother - I don't know why but she felt it was something I should know. I didn't know why I had to curtsey with my right knee (which is comfortable since I'm right handed) and genuflect with my left (which is uncomfortable for me). So I looked it up and this is what I found.

"As for genuflecting, generally people genuflected to royalty with the left knee and to God with the right leg.

People do not genuflect to royalty. Males bow, and females curtsey which is very different"

Are you Catholic, Lisele? Here's what fisheaters.com has to say about genuflection:

Genuflection on Left Knee: [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]How: Kneel on your left knee for a moment, bringing the left knee all the way to the floor and keeping the back straight. Hold for a moment, then stand.[/FONT] When: [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]When greeting or leaving the Pope or other hierarchs with the rank of Bishop or above and who have jurisdiction over you (only when the Pope is not present) -- e.g., to the Bishop or Archbishop of your diocese, not of a neighboring diocese. During the left-knee genuflection, a kiss is given to the hierarch's ring. Then stand.

Genuflection on Right Knee: How:
[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif][FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Looking at what you are genuflecting toward, kneel on your right knee for a moment in the manner of a man proposing to a woman, bringing the right knee all the way to the floor, close to the heel of the left foot, keeping the back and neck erect. Hold for a moment, then stand. When:
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Genuflect toward the Tabernacle where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved, and each time you pass in front of it (except when you're in procession, such as standing in line for Communion, or returning to your seat afterward). While this should, on one level, be a matter of habit, it shouldn't be done thoughtlessly. Remind yourself when genuflecting toward the Tabernacle that you are kneeling before God. Praying mentally, "My Lord and My God" is a good habit to get into while genuflecting on the right knee. If the Tabernacle is not on the Altar, genuflect toward the Altar and the Altar Crucifix. [/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Before a relic of the True Cross when it is exposed for public adoration. [/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]On Good Friday to Holy Saturday, after the ceremony of the Adoration of the Cross, genuflect when passing in front of the exposed Crucifix on the Altar.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Before entering or after exiting your pew at church.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
 
I always genuflect on the right knee at Mass/Adoration etc but I don't think I could genuflect on the left without collapsing. My balance isn't that good! ?
 
LOl:lol: I had to stop and actually think about what I do when I genuflect. I realize that my knee that dips is the one opposite to the pew. In other words "Mary side" It's my left and "Joseph side" it's my right. I must do that so I can quickly move into the pew. (Must be a leftover from Catholic school when we were being quickly shepherded into Mass by our teachers.)?
 
LOl:lol: I had to stop and actually think about what I do when I genuflect. I realize that my knee that dips is the one opposite to the pew. In other words "Mary side" It's my left and "Joseph side" it's my right. I must do that so I can quickly move into the pew. (Must be a leftover from Catholic school when we were being quickly shepherded into Mass by our teachers.)?

I stood up from my desk and practised to see what I do! And just as in church I have to grab something so I don't wobble or topple over. :lol:
 
What's a Hollywood smile (and Meghan isn't from Hollywood) as distinct from an ordinary wide happy grin, which I see?
 
I'm glad Meghan curtseyed before the queen. I thought we wouldn't see her first curtsy until her wedding day. If she didn't here the press would have dragged her for days. And with all the fuss about who curtseys to whom why didn't the blood princesses (Beatrice and Eugenie) do so? Also, does Meghan receive a bow or curtsy now? At the Nottingham event I saw a woman cursty to Meghan as she shook her hand.
 
That will certainly be controversial for some Americans, but they should get used to it.

The few Americans I know who pay attention or care about the BRF aren't bothered by this.

Just the custom there...like in the Asian countries folks bow.

LaRae
 
This American loved it and got all giggly about it... she looked so happy.

The reason why I said it was controversial is that there is a widespread misconception in the US, which has been actually repeated many times before on TRF, that Americans do not (or should not) bow (or curtsy) to anybody. Ms Markle's curtsy to the Queen would symbolically signify that she is giving up her "American identity" and embracing her new status as a British subject.

Just to make it clear, I don't think that is the case, but I'm pretty sure many Americans would see it that way.
 
Last edited:
She's about to join a clan with a formidable matriarch. If it's appropriate for her to show respect with a little dip, then that's what she should do.

If it were me, I don't think I would curtsy. I'm not a British subject nor do I plan to become one, so I do not see why it would be required of me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You aren't required to curtsey.


LaRae
 
I'm glad Meghan curtseyed before the queen. I thought we wouldn't see her first curtsy until her wedding day. If she didn't here the press would have dragged her for days. And with all the fuss about who curtseys to whom why didn't the blood princesses (Beatrice and Eugenie) do so? Also, does Meghan receive a bow or curtsy now? At the Nottingham event I saw a woman cursty to Meghan as she shook her hand.

It are the media playing it up: "Kate has to curtsy to blood princesses!"

On the very own website of the Monarchy can be read that there is no obligation at all. When one feels she has to lower herselves: be the Queen's guest. When another simply says "Good morning Ma'am", an equally friendly Queen will respond.
https://www.royal.uk/greeting-member-royal-family

In The Daily Telegraph Mr Richard ("Dickie") Arbiter, for years a press officer for the Queen, said that it is all hyped up by media. Inside the royal family it is all very relaxed and the royals usually just greet the Queen like we all do.
 
It are the media playing it up: "Kate has to curtsy to blood princesses!"

On the very own website of the Monarchy can be read that there is no obligation at all. When one feels she has to lower herselves: be the Queen's guest. When another simply says "Good morning Ma'am", an equally friendly Queen will respond.
https://www.royal.uk/greeting-member-royal-family

In The Daily Telegraph Mr Richard ("Dickie") Arbiter, for years a press officer for the Queen, said that it is all hyped up by media. Inside the royal family it is all very relaxed and the royals usually just greet the Queen like we all do.

I don't know what they do in private, but, at least in public events, all family members (other than the DoE) always curtsy or bow to the Queen. A similar protocol seems to be observed by the Danish and Spanish royal families vis a vis their respective monarchs. Curtsying or bowing seem to have been abandoned though in Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands.
 
Just to repeat again that we are not British 'subjects.' We are British citizens. I should know, my husband naturalised in April 2016 and he became a citizen. The whole subject thing ended in the 1940s but some Americans persist in using the anachronistic term.
 
I'm glad Meghan curtseyed before the queen. I thought we wouldn't see her first curtsy until her wedding day. If she didn't here the press would have dragged her for days. And with all the fuss about who curtseys to whom why didn't the blood princesses (Beatrice and Eugenie) do so? Also, does Meghan receive a bow or curtsy now? At the Nottingham event I saw a woman cursty to Meghan as she shook her hand.
Someone posted on the Christmas thread that they only bow/curtsey when first meeting the Queen. The Cambridges, Meghan, and Prince Harry didn't see the Queen before church so they bowed and curtsied when she arrived. The others, who stayed at Sandringham, already met the Queen and bowed / curtsied earlier.

Meghan receives curtseys from women and bows from men but no one is obligated to do either.
 
All good, except the footage of the bows/curtseys were as the Queen left....also, as the Cambridges, Harry and Meghan arrived with the other royals they must have arrived at Sandringham first to walk from there to the church. I would be amazed if the Queen stays in her room while everyone gathers downstairs on Christmas Day. The Church is minutes away from the House.

I think they just curtsey or bow because they are on the bottom step and the Queen is leaving. TBH in other years we've seen Harry bow while William & Kate haven't bowed/curtsied.
 
Last edited:
I didn’t see the curtsy sadly! Wish I had!
 
:previous: It seemed to me to be a Christmas of "firsts", statements of change and affirmation of family. There was a lot of talk and discussion between the FF and even Charles and the dignified bows and curtseys made one of those statements. We are family!

To those who say it was just staged, they are right, but it doesn't change the fact that the walkers set out before the Queen and therefore, those who weren't there for breakfast hadn't seen her before leaving for church and she enters church last. So after church is their formal greeting.
 
Again, how do you know the Queen, as hostess, didn't greet those who arrived after breakfast? I'm not saying your wrong but none of us know one way or the other. TBH I think this was somewhat staged and thats fine.
 
At least no one will question if Meghan will curtsy to the Queen. It has been filmed.
 
I don't know what they do in private, but, at least in public events, all family members (other than the DoE) always curtsy or bow to the Queen. A similar protocol seems to be observed by the Danish and Spanish royal families vis a vis their respective monarchs. Curtsying or bowing seem to have been abandoned though in Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands.

I seem to remember that Zara once said that she always curtseys to her grandmother the queen, both in public and in private.
 
It looked staged and intentional to me. I think it is Will/Kate's way of showing a united front which is lovely.
 
Thankyou! I’m so impressed by her. I wish her many happy years in our country and I hope she will feel at home.
 
Back
Top Bottom