Bowing and Curtseying

[Moonmaiden23]

RFK was not the leader of the Free World like his older brother so it was okay for him to bow if that was his choice.

But the only Head of State that JFK or Jacqueline Kennedy every made obeisance to while in the White House was the pope, and in fact I have read that she genuflected three times when she was received in audience with John XXIII in 1962.

There is also film and still photography of her kneeling before Richard Cardinal Cushing on the steps of St. Matthews Cathedral at JFK's funeral.

 

[Osipi]

Regarding JFK and Jackie's showing respect and genuflecting in the presence of Pope John XXIII, there are two factors at work here. Although HH was considered the Head of State in the Vatican, the genuflecting was due to the fact that religiously, the Pope was a Catholic's representative of Christ on Earth and as members of the Catholic Church, both JFK and Jackie paid homage to their Pope. The same applies to Cardinal Cushing.

 

[Pranter]

Moving Image-
Senator Robert Kennedy bowing to Her Majesty The Queen:
Camelot

Here Bobby was paying respect to The Queen with a bow.




Nod or a bow, the President knows how to pay respect to monarchs. He's seen doing so here to the Emperor of Japan-
Barack Obama criticised for 'treasonous' bow to Japanese emperor - Telegraph

He's criticized but in reality it's just his smooth style, swagger and class he's demonstrating.

Moonmaiden and Osipi already addressed the Bobby issue.


Smooth style class and swagger? Really? He's not a singer or a playboy he's a president.

Presidents in this country have no business bowing to any other head of state. It's not about him. It's about the office.


LaRae

 

[Dman]

Moonmaiden and Osipi already addressed the Bobby issue.


Smooth style class and swagger? Really? He's not a singer or a playboy he's a president.

Presidents in this country have no business bowing to any other head of state. It's not about him. It's about the office.


LaRae

The President knows about protocol, Pranter. He's advised on this stuff on a regular bases. If there was a real problem with him doing it, he wouldn't be doing it. He's simply paying homage to the customs of the country he's visiting. He doesn't not have to do it, but that's the kind of guy he is. The man has too much class for people to understand.

I may not be President, but if I ever met The Queen, I will bow my head. I would even bow my head before the President. It's all about showing some respect for a Head of State in your own personal way.

There are people who curtsey before the President and some who bow. There some who even hug, kiss him and sometimes pick him up.

 

[Countessmeout]

I think the point being, not only Obama but any president, they are HOS. Like we wouldn't see Maxima bowing to QEII, a protocol would not have a president either. A bow or nod is a sign to someone of higher rank (HRH bowing HM but not to each other). Just as no one would expect QEII, sultan or emperor tot bow to Obama, same goes. In republics, Presidents rank equal with HM.

Obama bowing may be his attempt at respect, in reality is him stating he is lower than the queen. Not sure any republic would want their president to give that, but for a country who seems to think they rule the free world that sends a wrong message.

 

[Dman]

I think the point being, not only Obama but any president, they are HOS. Like we wouldn't see Maxima bowing to QEII, a protocol would not have a president either. A bow or nod is a sign to someone of higher rank (HRH bowing HM but not to each other). Just as no one would expect QEII, sultan or emperor tot bow to Obama, same goes. In republics, Presidents rank equal with HM.

Obama bowing may be his attempt at respect, in reality is him stating he is lower than the queen. Not sure any republic would want their president to give that, but for a country who seems to think they rule the free world that sends a wrong message.

We know the protocol and he knows the protocol. This is just his own personal way of show some respect upon first time greetings. Obviously, his advisers don't seem to have a problem with it. He also don't do it all the time. He don't go bowing to everybody and to every Head of State. He knows he's the leader of the free world, and isn't expected to bow to anyone.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I honestly don't understand the big deal about President Obama bowing to Japan and Saudi Arabia. I mean, certainly it was a gaffe in protocol, but he has always been utterly respectful and classy when he meets with foreign heads of state. I would much rather my president err on the side of respect than to insult someone.

QEII slipped her arm about Michelle Obama's waist when they were first introduced. Was that a disgraceful thing for HM to do?

Would it have been okay if President Obama had bowed low to...say... King Haakon of Norway instead of to the Arab or Japanese royalty?

President Bush was photographed walking around his ranch in Crawford Texas holding hands with an Arab sheik for crying out loud.

I think Obama would probably face impeachment if he had been spotted strolling around the Rose Garden doing that.

I agree with Dman. President Obama is a gracious classy man and was unaware of proper protocol. He should have been better coached by the State Dept or his Chief of Protocol.

 

[Dman]

I honestly don't understand the big deal about President Obama bowing to Japan and Saudi Arabia. I mean, certainly it was a gaffe in protocol, but he has always been utterly respectful and classy when he meets with foreign heads of state. I would much rather my president err on the side of respect than to insult someone.

QEII slipped her arm about Michelle Obama's waist when they were first introduced. Was that a disgraceful thing for HM to do?

Would it have been okay if President Obama had bowed low to...say... King Haakon of Norway instead of to the Arab or Japanese royalty?

President Bush was photographed walking around his ranch in Crawford Texas holding hands with an Arab sheik for crying out loud.

I think Obama would probably face impeachment if he had been spotted strolling around the Rose Garden doing that.

I agree with Dman. President Obama is a gracious classy man and was unaware of proper protocol. He should have been better coached by the State Dept or his Chief of Protocol.

He is briefed on protocol, but he's respectful in his own way. It's classy all the way.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

He is briefed on protocol, but he's respectful in his own way. It's classy all the way.

Amen to that.

 

[Countessmeout]

I honestly don't understand the big deal about President Obama bowing to Japan and Saudi Arabia. I mean, certainly it was a gaffe in protocol, but he has always been utterly respectful and classy when he meets with foreign heads of state. I would much rather my president err on the side of respect than to insult someone.

QEII slipped her arm about Michelle Obama's waist when they were first introduced. Was that a disgraceful thing for HM to do?

Would it have been okay if President Obama had bowed low to...say... King Haakon of Norway instead of to the Arab or Japanese royalty?

President Bush was photographed walking around his ranch in Crawford Texas holding hands with an Arab sheik for crying out loud.

I think Obama would probably face impeachment if he had been spotted strolling around the Rose Garden doing that.

I agree with Dman. President Obama is a gracious classy man and was unaware of proper protocol. He should have been better coached by the State Dept or his Chief of Protocol.

The people complaining are Americans who think their president bowing to Anyone, is subservient not respectful. For people who think Obama is President of 90 countries (so called self-proclaimed leaders of the free world ) it is confusing.

Now who is making it about race He shook hands with a sheikh?? So???

I guess Obama has been impeached. He has shaken hands with plenty

Not rose gardens but Camp David (CP of Saudi Arabia)
Obama Arab Summit.JPEG-04b5f.jpg - Washington Times

Better get impeaching, here he goes again
Obama vows to 'stand by' Gulf allies amid concern over Iran threat | Reuters


The difference, a handshake, hug, nod are acknowledgement to equals. A bow is a sign of obedience.

Not saying I Agree, simply understand why some find their president bowing to royal unnerving.

Our PM, who she is his superior directly, only nods
Queen Elizabeth II Photos - Queen Elizabeth II Meets Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau - Zimbio

 

[Osipi]

Interesting conversation here. This is some information that I've dug up pertaining to Obama's bowing to the Emperor Akihito in 2009. Comes as a quote from the Office of the Chief of Protocol.

"The Office of the Chief of Protocol, working closely with the White House, provides advice on protocol matters for Presidential travel abroad. Protocol, in general, is about respecting the customs and traditions of a host country. The President was simply showing respect."

There is a breach of etiquette in this photo though and no one has noticed it.

"So did President Obama violate protocol? Well, yes, but not by bowing. He made the mistake of both shaking hands and bowing at the same time, a big breach of etiquette. The truth was that he was supposed to choose one or the other."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/1109/State_protocol_weighs_in_on_the_bow.html

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/presidential-bows-revisited/?_r=0

 

[Dman]

That's all he's done, show respect to other countries traditions and customs. I would do the same.

 

[Pranter]

The President knows about protocol, Pranter. He's advised on this stuff on a regular bases. If there was a real problem with him doing it, he wouldn't be doing it. He's simply paying homage to the customs of the country he's visiting. He doesn't not have to do it, but that's the kind of guy he is. The man has too much class for people to understand.

I may not be President, but if I ever met The Queen, I will bow my head. I would even bow my head before the President. It's all about showing some respect for a Head of State in your own personal way.

There are people who curtsey before the President and some who bow. There some who even hug, kiss him and sometimes pick him up.

Of course he knows protocol. That is not the issue here. The issue is he knows it and ignores it.

It really doesn't matter what you, private citizen, does when you might meet a head of state. What matters is when the leader of the country (and those who work for him) do when they meet them.

I don't see how it is 'classy' to ignore protocol and just do whatever you want.

LaRae

 

[AdmirerUS]

I'm going to stray off topic and just say that I think this discussion has reached the point where people are not convincing one another of anything and are going to continue to disagree. It's a lively and deep discussion but it now is treading water.

 

[sarahedwards2]

In the Scrabble dictionary the definition of "curtsy" is "to bow politely."


Sent from my iPod touch using The Royals Community

 

[Dman]

Of course he knows protocol. That is not the issue here. The issue is he knows it and ignores it.

It really doesn't matter what you, private citizen, does when you might meet a head of state. What matters is when the leader of the country (and those who work for him) do when they meet them.

I don't see how it is 'classy' to ignore protocol and just do whatever you want.

LaRae

He's not ignoring it. He's allowed to greet some of these leaders with their countries traditions. He also don't do it all the time. He just met up with The Queen this year and he didn't do a gentleman bow.

 

[Wirewinder]

Very nicely done.

I have a little neice who is really into Princesses, Royal Weddings and everything princessy, pretty and girly. When she visits she checks to forums to see what they wear and she asked me how they managed to curtsey without landing on their tush. I came across a delightfully quaint, but right on the money, You Tube lesson on how to curtsey properly. I tried it with her for fun and surprise, surprise, surprise, neither of us fell on our tush!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etiMil0_4Jw

Nice video.

Now how about the perfect Thai curtsy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rOZsWl1Ysg


Or perhaps:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efx6ZK81E2c


from 0:35 onwards?

But especially:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSiHo_amByQ


from 0:19 onwards!

 

[An Ard Ri]

A nice bow for the Infanta Alicia of Spain,Dowager Duchess of Calabria.

http://www.docelinajes.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/DO-252B-25C3-25A6A-ALICIA-ES-SALUDADA-POR-DON-GERMAN-DIAZ-PEREZ-ALCALDE-DE-SACERUELA-252C-GRAN-MAESTRE-DE-LA-ORDEN-DEL-SACER.jpg

 

[Darnius]

Flavia Hohenlohe y Medina (sister of the late Duke of Medinaceli) curtseys to the King of Spain today.

[DNF] Fotoarchief Denieuwsfoto

http://www.ppe-agency.com/preview.php?start=0&id=189182&zoektype=2&search=06-09-2016 Spain

 

[An Ard Ri]

HSH Rainier III bows to Queen Sofia following the enthronement ceremony of King Juan Carlos in 1975.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/89/71/f6/8971f679d4416ae63822bbcb46ec71b0.jpg

 

[Prisma]

CP Masako's curtsey to King Philippe:

http://www.noblesseetroyautes.com/w...28_1744982475765385_3690133926456068342_n.jpg

 

[fandesacs2003]

HSH Rainier III bows to Queen Sofia following the enthronement ceremony of King Juan Carlos in 1975.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/89/71/f6/8971f679d4416ae63822bbcb46ec71b0.jpg

I do not understand why he has to bow. He is head of state. She is Queen Consort

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I do not understand why he has to bow. He is head of state. She is Queen Consort

A personal mark of respect? In ye olde days it was pretty normal to bow or to make a little révérence for "the high lords and ladies". It was normal in the countryside that when the lady from the local castle passed by, gentlemen lifted their hat or cap as a greeting.

 

[wartenberg7]

I do not understand why he has to bow. He is head of state. She is Queen Consort

Well, this hasn´t changed since 1975 at all. Men keep on bowing to Queens, no matter consort or regnant, because they´re "Majesties".

But Pr Rainier would have to bow anyway. Also as a reigning Prince, he´s only a " Serene Highness", which is even more way below ranking than a "Royal Highness" (Princes/ sses, Dukes/ Duchesses). The title of "Majesty" is only held by monarchs, like Kings, Queens and Emperors.
To put it strictly, the british Queen´s granddaughters Princesses Beatrice or Eugenie (Royal Highnesses, Princesses of York) are, by standards of royal etiquette, even higher ranking than the Prince of Monaco!

Being a head of state is not what matters here; no Royal would normally ever bow or curtsey to a republican head of state!

 

[fandesacs2003]

Thanks @wartenberg7.
So Grand Duc Henri of Luxembourg bows to Queen Maxima despite she is younger. Interesting

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Thanks @wartenberg7.
So Grand Duc Henri of Luxembourg bows to Queen Maxima despite she is younger. Interesting

Usually the Grand-Duke simply gives a handkiss: picture. Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume does the same.

 

[carlota]

Thanks @wartenberg7.
So Grand Duc Henri of Luxembourg bows to Queen Maxima despite she is younger. Interesting

But Pr Rainier would have to bow anyway. Also as a reigning Prince, he´s only a " Serene Highness", which is even more way below ranking than a "Royal Highness" (Princes/ sses, Dukes/ Duchesses). The title of "Majesty" is only held by monarchs, like Kings, Queens and Emperors.
To put it strictly, the british Queen´s granddaughters Princesses Beatrice or Eugenie (Royal Highnesses, Princesses of York) are, by standards of royal etiquette, even higher ranking than the Prince of Monaco!

i don't think this is right.

the grand duke is the head of state and does not bow/curtsy to other royal head of state or his consort - whatever his title may be. it is true that things are a bit altered at the british court, but for the other courts i would never expect a head of state with a title other than king/emperror to have to curtsy to one of the latter.

proof is that there are no pictures of in the grand duke (or prince albert) in his many royal encounters bowing to other reigning monarchs. grand duchess maria teresa has never seen curtsying to other monarchs either, and there were recent visits by for example the netherlands or belgium to luxembourg.

see here for example:

grand duchess maria teresa greets queen sofia with a kiss

there have been odd instances, for example when charlene curtsied to the queen. i think that was just a sign of respect on charlene's part to someone who is older and much more experienced in the role than she was when that took place. she didn't have to, but won brownie points in my head for doing so.

Usually the Grand-Duke simply gives a handkiss: picture. Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume does the same.

i think that is just the grand duke's way of being chivalrous. other royals do so too, both to royals and non-royals.

felipe greeting a non-royal with a handkiss
juan carlos doing the same
felipe greeting mrs. obama, wife of a head of state, with a handkiss
juan carlos hand kissing sheikha mozah

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I have to find the video but when the Duchess of Cambridge arrived at the private villa of the King, she made a révérence to him.

 

[Rudolph]

You can see The Duchess of Cambridge curtsy to the the King in this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30hO4IMaeiY&feature=youtu.be

 

[Osipi]

I think a lot of times in discussing various events and who curtsied to whom and who bowed to whom gets confusing because there is a mixture of protocol of what is expected and just plain old courtesy and respect.

Although its a dwindling practice, there are still times a man opens a car door for a woman (my hubby still does this) and pulls out a chair to seat a woman and there's always families that have "Dad" at the head of the table.

Then again, it might also be a truism that comes from the Duke of Edinburgh who smartly quipped "When a man opens a car door for his wife, it's either a new car or a new wife." (On a side note though, hubby and I have been married 19 years this month and own a older, very used vehicle but then again, we're practically dinosaurs from an age past.)