Bowing and Curtseying

[wanderingnana]

I'm pretty sure curtesying has been around since the Middle Ages. It's really nothing new

[Meraude]

Originally Posted by wanderingnana

I'm pretty sure curtesying has been around since the Middle Ages. It's really nothing new

From Wikipedia: According to Desmond Morris, the motions involved in the curtsey and the bow were similar until the 17th century, and the gender differentiation between the actions developed afterwards. (Curtsey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), before that the gesture was similar for both genders.

As for dancing in medieval times, those dances was not pair dances as we know now, the dancing then was group dances usually done in circles.

[Noble Consort Ming]

Originally Posted by Meraude

As for dancing in medieval times, those dances was not pair dances as we know now, the dancing then was group dances usually done in circles.

You cited wiki as your source for the other info you posted which I snipped out. French language wiki says women curtsied before dancing in the middle ages. I do realize these were group dances put people were still lined up men with women.

[Meraude]

Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming

You cited wiki as your source for the other info you posted which I snipped out. French language wiki says women curtsied before dancing in the middle ages. I do realize these were group dances put people were still lined up men with women.

The medieval times stretches from the 5th to the 15th century so it's a very long period and the way people danced changed during that time, from circle dances to group dances with couples paired up towards the end of that period. I would think that both the male and the female performed some kind of bowing gesture when asking/accepting a paired dance, such as this: http://tinyurl.com/87tvg3x , but the curtsey with bended knees pointing outwards such as we know it today (well, perhaps not this deep), such as this: http://tinyurl.com/852prl6 , came later on, and males bowing with feet together like this: http://tinyurl.com/7zu4yt5

You could call the first one a curtsey-bow made by both men and women, the second a curtsey made only by women and the third a bow made by men and today also by women who don't want to curtsey.

One reason for why women began doing a downward curtsey instead of a forward bow from the waist could have been how the female dress changed to skirts with lots of petticoats and stiff material to keep the skirts very full, to make a forward bow could have the skirt to rise up from the ground at the back and show off more than the woman wanted.

[Noble Consort Ming]

Originally Posted by Meraude

One reason for why women began doing a downward curtsey instead of a forward bow from the waist could have been how the female dress changed to skirts with lots of petticoats and stiff material to keep the skirts very full, to make a forward bow could have the skirt to rise up from the ground at the back and show off more than the woman wanted.

And don't forget the decolletage. I'm sure they didn't want to bend over in those heaving bosom dresses.

Thank you for your info, Meraude.

[Meraude]

Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming

And don't forget the decolletage. I'm sure they didn't want to bend over in those heaving bosom dresses.

Those heaving bosoms were a later fashion detail, if you look at portraits of females from the Tudor and Elizabethan times the women were very flatchested, but to try to bow forward in a dress such as this would not be easy: http://www.furniturestyles.net/europ...ngale-hoop.gif

[Noble Consort Ming]

Originally Posted by Meraude

Those heaving bosoms were a later fashion detail, if you look at portraits of females from the Tudor and Elizabethan times the women were very flatchested, but to try to bow forward in a dress such as this would not be easy: http://www.furniturestyles.net/europ...ngale-hoop.gif

I should have said I was thinking more of the regency and victorian times.

[Lady Marmalade]

On a video on Youtube in regards the Queen's lunch with the heads of state. The Duchess of Cambridge is shown grasping the left shoulder of Princess Margarita of Romania, and then kissing both cheeks and curtseying. A fitting and appropriate touch to a senior royal.

[theodemaxx]

Hi! Let me talk about bowing and curtseying in Thailand.

This type of manner was introduced to Thailand (or “Siam”) in the reign of Rama III by westerners. However, since Siamese prostrate themselves at royals’ or nobles’ feet to pay respect, bowing and curtseying was really rare until the Siamese Revolution 1932 (reign of Rama VII.) The absolute monarchy changed to the constitutional monarchy. Then, the Revolutionary Council adjusted some of royal protocols including bowing and curtseying.
Some rules in Thailand

- Commoners must (yeah, I said “must”) bow/curtsey to the King, the Queen, and royal family members.
- Royals must bow/curtsey to the one who outranks.
- If the royals received bowing or curtseying from a royal who is older than them, they will do a “Wai” (Thai greeting: Thai greeting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) back, or vice versa.
- Also, royals may do a “Wai” to commoners they respect, and comnners must bow/curtsey back.
- Women wearing full dress uniforms would not curtsey but bow instead, (except female courtiers who would curtsey even though they wear uniforms.)

7DEC10 THAILAND ;4of4; The Social Function of Government Glorifies His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej in Occasion of the 83rd Birthday - YouTube

This video shows HRH Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn did a “Wai” to her elder sister, Princess Ubolratana Rajakanya. Then Princess Ubolratana curtseyed to her younger sister immediately. (0:32)

After playing “Maha Chai” (Grand Victory) anthem (the amthem for senior royal family members,) Princess Ubonratana got into the car. As the car moved, everyone bowed/curtseyed to her, except HRH Princess Chulabhorn who just did a “Wai.” The reason is that HRH Princess Chulabhorn outranks her elder sister. (2:12)

HRH Princess Soamsawali curtseyed to HRH Princess Chulabhorn. (3:12)

FYI: By the palace act, HRH Princess Ubonratana Rajakanya lost her royal status because she had been married to an American. After she divorced and came back to Thailand, HM the King granted her as “Princess Ubonratana Rajakanya” with no “Her Royal Highness” style, and put her after her siblings and her aunts in order of precedence.

By the way, in some very traditional events or just they wanted to do so, we can see people prostrating themselves at the King's feet.

[theodemaxx]

At HM King Bhumibol of Thailand's Diamond Jubilee, you can see many princes and princesses bowing and curtseying. (From 30:00)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WT1c...eature=related

1. HH Sayyid Shihab bin Tariq Taimour Al Said (Oman)
2. HRH The Duke of York (UK)
3. HH General Sheikh Mohammed Bin Zayed Al Nahyan (Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi, Deputy Supreme Commander of the UAE Armed Forces)
4. TRH The Duke and Duchess of Brabant (Belgium)
5. TRH The Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Norway
6. HRH The Prince of Orange and HRH Princess Máxima (Netherlands)
7. HRH Chhoetse Penlop Jigme Khesar Namgyal Wangchuck (Now HM The King of Bhutan)
8. HRH The Crown Prince of Tonga (Now HM The King of Tonga)
9. HH Shaikh Khalifa bin Salman Al Khalifa (Bahrain)
10. HRH Princess Lalla Salma (Morocco)
11. HM The Queen of Spain
12. HRH The Prince Consort of Denmark
13. HSH The Hereditary Prince of Liechtenstein
14. HH Sheikh Sabah Al-Ahmad Al-Jaber Al-Sabah (Kuwait)
15. HSH The Sovereign Prince of Monaco
16. HM The King of Cambodia
17. HM Tuanku Syed Sirajuddin Ibni Al-Marhum Tuanku Syed Putra Jamalullail, The Yang di-Pertuan Agong XII and HM Tuanku Fauziah binti Al-Marhum Tengku Abdul Rashid, The Raja Permaisuri Agong (Malaysia)
18. HRH The Grand Duke of Luxembourg
19. HM The King of Jordan
20. HM The King and Queen of Lesotho
21. HH Sheikh Hamad Bin Khalifa Al-Thani and HH Sheikha Moza Bin Nasir Al-Musnad (Qatar)
22. HM The King of Swaziland
23. TIM The Emperor and Empress of Japan
24. TM The King and Queen of Sweden
25. HM Sultan Haji Hassanal Bolkiah Muizzaddin Waddaulah and Her Majesty Raja Isteri Pengiran Anak Hajah Saleha (Brunei)

[Esmerelda]

Princess Diana curtseys to King Juan Carlos.
http://www.princess-diana-remembered...827582.jpg?440

[Baroness of Books]

That's certainly a deep knee-bend, and Juan Carlos kissing her hand is utterly debonair!

[Pranter]

I think Diana had one of the best curtsey's I've seen.


LaRae

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Pranter

I think Diana had one of the best curtsey's I've seen.

I don't know, Diana's curtseys were always extra-deep; it was almost as if she were kneeling, not curtseying.
Personally, I prefer more graceful and not so deep curtseys.

A couple of other pictures of curtseying Diana:
- Another deep curtsey to King Juan Carlos
- Curtsey to Empress Michiko of Japan
- A very deep, formal curtsey 1
- A very deep, formal curtsey 2

[Baroness of Books]

I love the last curtsey; it reminds me of Sophie's at Ascot, except that Sophie's head was bowed and one leg was behind the other.

[sarahedwards2]

Does anyone have any pictures of Princess Anne curtsying?

[Pranter]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

I don't know, Diana's curtseys were always extra-deep; it was almost as if she were kneeling, not curtseying.
Personally, I prefer more graceful and not so deep curtseys.

A couple of other pictures of curtseying Diana:
- Another deep curtsey to King Juan Carlos
- Curtsey to Empress Michiko of Japan
- A very deep, formal curtsey 1
- A very deep, formal curtsey 2

I have always thought her curtseys were very graceful and elegant.

LaRae

[Daria_S]

Diana's curtseys were indeed very deep and graceful. However, I think that the deeper curtseys look better when the person is wearing a longer flowing gown. Sophie's curtseys are very graceful also.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by sarahedwards2

Does anyone have any pictures of Princess Anne curtsying?

- Princess Anne curtseying to King Harald
- Princess Anne curtseying to Queen Sonja

Originally Posted by Pranter

I have always thought her curtseys were very graceful and elegant.

I guess our curtseying "preferences" differ, although we both probably agree Diana's curtseys were certainly very respectful.

[Pranter]

It looks as if Princess Anne's are about as deep as Diana's were.

Diana's just seemed very natural, sometimes you see people trying to curtsey and it looks very contrived and unnatural.


LaRae