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  #981  
Old 05-05-2011, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polly View Post
...In this YouTube video... it appears that Queen Beatrix is curtseying to Queen Elizabeth. It may not be Beatrix, of course, but it very much looks like her.I could stand to be corrected, however.
Look like Queen Beatrix, but it isn't her
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  #982  
Old 05-05-2011, 01:21 PM
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Try this link on for size.. it's a tad confusing..

The Duchess of Cambridge: Curtsy in a Muddle | Socyberty

The Duchess of Cambridge: Curtsy in a Muddle | Socyberty
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  #983  
Old 05-05-2011, 01:26 PM
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actually after reading that article.. it's not that bad and the writer should have known that 2 ladies that have married into the family that the junior member based on line to the throne has to curtsy up.. meaning if it's just Camilla & Catherine. Catherine must curtsy to Camilla since Camilla is also Duchess and married to Heir apparent. For the most part the new order of precedence.. is a mess. In some ways I agree that a Royal born princess that has her own Princess title of right should outrank someone who married into the family. It'll be tough to remember. so when you walk into a room.. you'll have to do some fast thinking to figure out who bows to whom.. glad I don't have to do it.
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  #984  
Old 05-18-2011, 01:55 AM
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The Order of Precedence applies here, right? If so, in England and Wales, both Camilla and Kate have ranks below the daughters and granddaughters (whether with a royal title or not). I guess blood relations matter here. Being both part of the family only through marriage that even Zarah Philips precedes them.

At this point, Kate should curstey first to Camilla as the former is only the wife of the grandson of the sovereign while the latter is the wife of the son of the Queen. Even the Countess of Wessex precedes Kate in this order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polly View Post
Princes and princesses always curtsey or bow to a monarch, reigning or deposed.
I think I've read that one of the Spanish Infantas (either Elena or Cristina, not Letizia) refused to curtsy first to a deposed monarch, one of the Italian or German ones, I think. Anyone who could shed light whether this act was disrespectful?
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  #985  
Old 05-18-2011, 02:32 AM
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Do they curtsey to their uncle Constantine of Greece. If they do and if that's true, it's hypocritical.
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  #986  
Old 05-18-2011, 03:07 AM
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That would depend. Constantine was an actual crowned King while the current Italians and Austrians are more claimants and never ones that were ever really in that position.
The last true king of Italy died in 1983 and the last emperor of Austria died in 1922.
The last Kaiser of Germany died in 1942.
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  #987  
Old 05-18-2011, 05:23 AM
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I'm not sure which sovereign (pretender) the Infanta refused to curtsey first.... or whether it was a duke, prince, king or emperor. I've read it a few years back so my exact recall of it is not perfect.

But, as a rule (whether reigning or not, was the infanta supposed to curtsey first to said person? I can't imagine her being criticised for refusing IF that was the proper protocol...
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  #988  
Old 05-18-2011, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monica17 View Post
The Order of Precedence applies here, right?...
again it's a confusing mess... because it always depends on who is in the room at the time but as I understand it, The Countess of Wessex will always have to curtsey to Catherine since Catherine is married to 2nd in line of the throne and Prince Edward is currently 7th. However, Catherine would have to curtsey to Prince Edward and by default the Countess of Wessex if in the same and by herself without Prince William since Prince Edward is royal born and outranks Catherine.

If we are just talking about the ladies minus the husbands. I'm still a little confused. Dabrett's hierarchy tables state that the Sovereign's daughter has precedence over granddaughter's despite the fact that Princess Beatrice would at least in theory outrank them all (not counting Her Majesty The Queen, of course) since she is royal born , a princess in her own right, and first female who is 5th in the line of succession and ahead of HRH Princess Royal who is 10th in line of succession.
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  #989  
Old 05-18-2011, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esmerelda View Post
Do they curtsey to their uncle Constantine of Greece. If they do and if that's true, it's hypocritical.
Of course they do, at least Letizia does. I think in his world Constantine is still King
http://estaticos.20minutos.es/img/2008/08/07/856449.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/2j124qp.jpg

Elena curtseying to Queen Sofia, as usual in public.
http://noticias.terra.es/2011/mundo/...pfre$599x0.jpg
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  #990  
Old 05-18-2011, 06:10 PM
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Here is a funny link that might clear up some confusion.

The royal pecking order - World - Macleans.ca

The pic is outrageous.
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  #991  
Old 05-18-2011, 06:22 PM
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Funny yes but rather innacurate :

Quote:
Courtiers reported that the two senior princesses, Anne and Alexandra of Kent, the Queen’s cousin, staged a mini revolt. “Anne? She is never going to curtsy to her,” Hoey said. “That’s not going to happen.”
I just can't imagine Pcess Alexandra (one of Camilla's friend) and Pcess Anne (who curtsied to Camilla more than once) staging a "mini revolt".
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  #992  
Old 05-18-2011, 06:29 PM
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without access to that Precendence document for both when you are on your own and the one when you are with you spouse. we may never know how the internal mechanism really works. However, the scuttlebutt says is that there are several "ladies" that do not like Camilla so I tend to believe in the mini-revolt. Since the Queen herself drew up the confusing list in 2005.
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  #993  
Old 05-18-2011, 06:40 PM
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Thanks Whitetiger,

Interesting articles and the positioning map of royal ladies is very helpful - although I'd still be confused if I were presented.
I guess the safest thing to do in our postition is to just bow to everyone and be done with it!!

Larry
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  #994  
Old 05-18-2011, 08:18 PM
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It's all so silly to an American. Maybe the royals need to get a life.
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  #995  
Old 05-18-2011, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitetiger
Here is a funny link that might clear up some confusion. The royal pecking order - World - Macleans.ca
Totally inaccurate since with men Sophie is higher then Kate, Bea and Eugenie....and Anne us higher then Bea and Eugenie always .......

That looks for like the order of succesion which is diff then order of precedence-
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  #996  
Old 05-19-2011, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagMil View Post
Look like Queen Beatrix, but it isn't her
It definitly looks like Beatrix, could it be that it is her before she became queen?
I think the reason royals continue to curtsey to deposed monarchs is the fear that one day it would ahappen to them, and they try to keep it up even for those deposed...
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  #997  
Old 05-19-2011, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitetiger View Post
again it's a confusing mess...
Thank you, I think what you said makes sense.

Although I don't see why Princess Beatrice should be ahead of The Princess Royal (Anne), no matter if she's ahead in the line of succession. Anne is the daughter of the sovereign while Beatrice is only a granddaughter.

I think it makes sense that in private or family occasions those born royal should have precedence over the others who merely joined the family (unless born royal themselves). Princess Michael of Kent could be a "special" case, IMHO, although born a baroness, she had some very high born ancestors in the Holy Roman Empire.

So Kate is below in their ranks when unaccompanied by her husband then. (I can't seem to get the hang of calling her Catherine yet maybe because I don't consider her "royal" in the true sense of the word; but neither is her husband a "pure" royal either as Diana was not of royal lineage - nor was the Queen Mum at any rate - so that makes him only *half* , or even less, royal in my book).

Another link that explains it.....

http://www.royaltywithellakay.com/20...seys-for-kate/
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  #998  
Old 05-19-2011, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie View Post
I think the reason royals continue to curtsey to deposed monarchs is the fear that one day it would ahappen to them, and they try to keep it up even for those deposed...
I also think royals such as princes/princesses should curtsey to the heads of non-reigning families now, at least as a sign of respect & tradition.
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  #999  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitetiger
again it's a confusing mess...
No- Catherine will always have to curtesy to Sophie if they are without husbands since Sophie is the monoarch daughterin law and not granddaughter in law- if Edward is present and William then Edward out ranks William as son of the monoarch, but if William is there but not Edward then Sophie would curtesy to Catherine. Catherine curtesys to Edward not bc he was born royal and she wasn't but because Edward is the monoarchs son and William (from whom Catherine takes her rank) is only the grandson .....
In official precedence Anne ( a Princess of the Blood) must curtesy to Charles, Edward and Andrew as she is the monoarchs daughter and they are sons - so royal born or not has nothing to do with it in official setting, in private precedence it has a lot more to do with it

It's not based on succession (ie line to the throne) it's based on relationship to the monoarch( ie son, daughter, niece etc...) When Charles is King then yes if men in the room every curtesys to Catherine (now private precedence is different and based upon the monoarchs wishes)

For just the ladies, Anne outranks everyone (except the Queen) with Princess Alexandria, following as Princesses of the Blood, then Camilla, then Sophie and then Bea, Eugenie and Zara as granddaughters of the monoarch, probably then Kate (though the new one hasn't been publicized yet- it may change we will have to wait and see, I think off got this right but it's something like this) as I said before private precedence is at the discretion of the Queen ......Again, succesion has nothing to do with it. (see below)

In 2005, the Queen changed the order of precedence for private occasions, putting the Duchess of Cornwall fourth in the order of precedence, after herself, the Princess Royal, and Princess Alexandra, contrary to the usual position of the heir's consort. Charles' first wife, Diana, had ranked above the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra.[1] The Duchess of Cornwall continues to rank second in the order of precedence at official occasions, such as state dinners.
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  #1000  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monica17

The Order of Precedence applies here, right? If so, in England and Wales, both Camilla and Kate have ranks below the daughters and granddaughters (whether with a royal title or not). I guess blood relations matter here. Being both part of the family only through marriage that even Zarah Philips precedes them.

At this point, Kate should curstey first to Camilla as the former is only the wife of the grandson of the sovereign while the latter is the wife of the son of the Queen. Even the Countess of Wessex precedes Kate in this order.
Yes! For the second paragraph but for the first paragraphg - yes Camilla is outranked by Princesses of the Blood in private functions (Kate is out ranked by Anne in both official and private) - Camilla (at official functions) always #2 lady in the land behind the Queen- there are two precedences here, the official one and the private one - in official Camilla is number 2 , if private I believe she's 4 ( see below)

In 2005, the Queen changed the order of precedence for private occasions, putting the Duchess of Cornwall fourth in the order of precedence, after herself, the Princess Royal, and Princess Alexandra, contrary to the usual position of the heir's consort. Charles' first wife, Diana, had ranked above the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra.[1] The Duchess of Cornwall continues to rank second in the order of precedence at official occasions, such as state dinners.
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