Bowing and Curtseying


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Funny yes but rather innacurate :

Courtiers reported that the two senior princesses, Anne and Alexandra of Kent, the Queen’s cousin, staged a mini revolt. “Anne? She is never going to curtsy to her,” Hoey said. “That’s not going to happen.”
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I just can't imagine Pcess Alexandra (one of Camilla's friend) and Pcess Anne (who curtsied to Camilla more than once) staging a "mini revolt".
 
without access to that Precendence document for both when you are on your own and the one when you are with you spouse. we may never know how the internal mechanism really works. However, the scuttlebutt says is that there are several "ladies" that do not like Camilla so I tend to believe in the mini-revolt. Since the Queen herself drew up the confusing list in 2005.
 
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Thanks Whitetiger,

Interesting articles and the positioning map of royal ladies is very helpful - although I'd still be confused if I were presented.
I guess the safest thing to do in our postition is to just bow to everyone and be done with it!!

Larry
 
It's all so silly to an American. Maybe the royals need to get a life.
 
Whitetiger said:
Here is a funny link that might clear up some confusion. The royal pecking order - World - Macleans.ca
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Totally inaccurate since with men Sophie is higher then Kate, Bea and Eugenie....and Anne us higher then Bea and Eugenie always .......

That looks for like the order of succesion which is diff then order of precedence-
 
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MagMil said:
Look like Queen Beatrix, but it isn't her :)
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It definitly looks like Beatrix, could it be that it is her before she became queen?
I think the reason royals continue to curtsey to deposed monarchs is the fear that one day it would ahappen to them, and they try to keep it up even for those deposed...
 
Whitetiger said:
again it's a confusing mess...
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Thank you, I think what you said makes sense.

Although I don't see why Princess Beatrice should be ahead of The Princess Royal (Anne), no matter if she's ahead in the line of succession. Anne is the daughter of the sovereign while Beatrice is only a granddaughter.

I think it makes sense that in private or family occasions those born royal should have precedence over the others who merely joined the family (unless born royal themselves). Princess Michael of Kent could be a "special" case, IMHO, although born a baroness, she had some very high born ancestors in the Holy Roman Empire.

So Kate is below in their ranks when unaccompanied by her husband then. (I can't seem to get the hang of calling her Catherine yet maybe because I don't consider her "royal" in the true sense of the word; but neither is her husband a "pure" royal either as Diana was not of royal lineage - nor was the Queen Mum at any rate - so that makes him only *half* , or even less, royal in my book).

Another link that explains it.....

http://www.royaltywithellakay.com/2010/11/curtseys-for-kate/
 
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auntie said:
I think the reason royals continue to curtsey to deposed monarchs is the fear that one day it would ahappen to them, and they try to keep it up even for those deposed...
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I also think royals such as princes/princesses should curtsey to the heads of non-reigning families now, at least as a sign of respect & tradition. :)
 
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Whitetiger said:
again it's a confusing mess...
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No- Catherine will always have to curtesy to Sophie if they are without husbands since Sophie is the monoarch daughterin law and not granddaughter in law- if Edward is present and William then Edward out ranks William as son of the monoarch, but if William is there but not Edward then Sophie would curtesy to Catherine. Catherine curtesys to Edward not bc he was born royal and she wasn't but because Edward is the monoarchs son and William (from whom Catherine takes her rank) is only the grandson .....
In official precedence Anne ( a Princess of the Blood) must curtesy to Charles, Edward and Andrew as she is the monoarchs daughter and they are sons - so royal born or not has nothing to do with it in official setting, in private precedence it has a lot more to do with it

It's not based on succession (ie line to the throne) it's based on relationship to the monoarch( ie son, daughter, niece etc...) When Charles is King then yes if men in the room every curtesys to Catherine (now private precedence is different and based upon the monoarchs wishes)

For just the ladies, Anne outranks everyone (except the Queen) with Princess Alexandria, following as Princesses of the Blood, then Camilla, then Sophie and then Bea, Eugenie and Zara as granddaughters of the monoarch, probably then Kate (though the new one hasn't been publicized yet- it may change we will have to wait and see, I think off got this right but it's something like this) as I said before private precedence is at the discretion of the Queen ......Again, succesion has nothing to do with it. (see below)

In 2005, the Queen changed the order of precedence for private occasions, putting the Duchess of Cornwall fourth in the order of precedence, after herself, the Princess Royal, and Princess Alexandra, contrary to the usual position of the heir's consort. Charles' first wife, Diana, had ranked above the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra.[1] The Duchess of Cornwall continues to rank second in the order of precedence at official occasions, such as state dinners.
 
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monica17 said:
The Order of Precedence applies here, right? If so, in England and Wales, both Camilla and Kate have ranks below the daughters and granddaughters (whether with a royal title or not). I guess blood relations matter here. Being both part of the family only through marriage that even Zarah Philips precedes them.

At this point, Kate should curstey first to Camilla as the former is only the wife of the grandson of the sovereign while the latter is the wife of the son of the Queen. Even the Countess of Wessex precedes Kate in this order.
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Yes! For the second paragraph but for the first paragraphg - yes Camilla is outranked by Princesses of the Blood in private functions (Kate is out ranked by Anne in both official and private) - Camilla (at official functions) always #2 lady in the land behind the Queen- there are two precedences here, the official one and the private one - in official Camilla is number 2 , if private I believe she's 4 ( see below)

In 2005, the Queen changed the order of precedence for private occasions, putting the Duchess of Cornwall fourth in the order of precedence, after herself, the Princess Royal, and Princess Alexandra, contrary to the usual position of the heir's consort. Charles' first wife, Diana, had ranked above the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra.[1] The Duchess of Cornwall continues to rank second in the order of precedence at official occasions, such as state dinners.
 
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MRSJ said:
... private precedence is different and based upon the monoarchs wishes.
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I stand corrected. I've done some reading about this Precendence list that the Queen puts out and it's largely however the current reigning Monarch wants to construct it. The Parliament does not involve itself in this Precendence list although Line of succession is another matter entirely. I'd be interested to see the new list if anyone can find it. I have a feeling I'm not going to like what I read even If I understand it and can sympathize on some level.
 
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Whitetiger said:
I stand corrected. I've done some reading about this Precendence list that the Queen puts out and it's largely however the current reigning Monarch wants to construct it. The Parliament does not involve itself in this Precendence list although Line of succession is another matter entirely. I'd be interested to see the new list if anyone can find it. I have a feeling I'm not going to like what I read even If I understand it and can sympathize on some level.
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The official one doesn't change- but you're right the private one is at discretion of monarch (bet when Charles is King it'll easier like Charles/Camilla, William/Kate, Harry ..no one else ha :) )....The new one should be publicized around the time of Royal Ascot I think ....so we're still waiting but I'm sure once it's out someone on these boards will put it up :) This whole precedence/ranking thing is so fascinating to me too. All I know for 100% is if every I meet royalty I shall curtesy :)
 
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Australian said:
From my understanding- The President does not bow to any royals. But in that picture, he wasnt a president, he was a little boy so he was required to bow.
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Currently, only citizens (or subjects, in some cases) of countries of which the Queen is Head of State are required to bow or curtsey, although even in the UK this has been relaxed and it is more or less considered a matter of personal choice. Most would consider it bad manners, however, to not do so when meeting (in particular) senior Royals and especially HM.

In modern times, wives (or husbands) of heads-of-state of other countries, the U.S. included, have NEVER been required to bow or curtsey as they are of the same status as their spouse whose office and social position are equal to the Queen's during their duration in office. One touching story: The White House's Etiquette Officer, Angier Biddle Duke looked taken aback at Jackie Kennedy when she curtseyed to the Duke of Edinburgh at the reception following President Kennedy's funeral. She noted his look and commented softly, "Angie, I'm no longer the wife of a head-of-state".
 
Does anyone know if Queen Elizabeths grandchildren curtsey in private to her?
 
IloveCP said:
Does anyone know if Queen Elizabeths grandchildren curtsey in private to her?
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I believe Zara has said they do
 
MRSJ said:
I believe Zara has said they do
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Or more precisely she said she does. But I believe the adult ones all do.
 
Does anyone have a picture of Marie Chantal curtseying?
 
MRSJ said:
The official one doesn't change- but you're right the private one is at discretion of monarch (bet when Charles is King it'll easier like Charles/Camilla, William/Kate, Harry ..no one else ha :) )....The new one should be publicized around the time of Royal Ascot I think ....so we're still waiting but I'm sure once it's out someone on these boards will put it up :) This whole precedence/ranking thing is so fascinating to me too. All I know for 100% is if every I meet royalty I shall curtesy :)
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With all respect, and noting my apparent fondness and high regard for the BRF, I simply do not understand the concept of an American bowing or curtseying to (especially) any and/or all royalty. We fought a war to rid the United States of the concept that one person is above another simply because of birth. While I freely admit that it doesn't always work that way in the US - nonetheless, the principle holds.

I could understand more easily if you had said, "Her Majesty", or "The Duke of Edinburgh" or some Royal in a similar position with a similar record of duty in a different land.

Having said all this, I myself would probably bob my head, ONLY to HM or her consort and simply out of respect for the job she has done. That lady has given her life to her country even more than if she had literally died for it in WWII or any other war. Noting that, I must also mention that I perform the same show of respect to anyone (including fellow Americans or Israelis) I meet to whom I feel a great deal of respect for whatever reasons are applicable to that particular person.

I hope you do not think I am "giving you a hard time" as that is not my intention. It was the generic "royalty" that surprised me from another American. Everyone is certainly entitled to his or her viewpoint and as long as YOU are comfortable with it - then who am I to even comment? But E.A. of Hanover came to mind with the generic "Royalty" aspect of your post and I can't even imagine his "subjects" bowing to him!

I sincerely wish you get your chance to curtsey to a great Royal, such as HM, or whomever you are interested in particularly :")
 
MagMil said:
Look like Queen Beatrix, but it isn't her :)
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That is Queen Elizabeth II from the back.
And upon me meeting royalty rather reigning and non reigning I would nod instead of bowing or curtseying that is still a sign of a respect though it is different I'm still showing respect to their postions.
 
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Aliza said:
I hope you do not think I am "giving you a hard time" as that is not my intention. It was the generic "royalty" that surprised me from another American. Everyone is certainly entitled to his or her viewpoint and as long as YOU are comfortable with it - then who am I to even comment? But E.A. of Hanover came to mind with the generic "Royalty" aspect of your post and I can't even imagine his "subjects" bowing to him!
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Lol- I should probably have said a royal family member I respect, not the generic royalty.....

I get why some Americans think bowing shouldn't be done but as an American I think it is within my rights to do as I please if I want to- freedom! Now that's pretty American right? :)

No offense taken- I respect others right to refrain from bowing/curtesying as I expect them to respect mine to do so (and for me it's prob a personal thing bc I love and hold an interest in most Royalty) !
 
Yes, but also very deep.
 
Aliza said:
Currently, only citizens (or subjects, in some cases) of countries of which the Queen is Head of State are required to bow or curtsey, although even in the UK this has been relaxed and it is more or less considered a matter of personal choice. Most would consider it bad manners, however, to not do so when meeting (in particular) senior Royals and especially HM.

In modern times, wives (or husbands) of heads-of-state of other countries, the U.S. included, have NEVER been required to bow or curtsey as they are of the same status as their spouse whose office and social position are equal to the Queen's during their duration in office. One touching story: The White House's Etiquette Officer, Angier Biddle Duke looked taken aback at Jackie Kennedy when she curtseyed to the Duke of Edinburgh at the reception following President Kennedy's funeral. She noted his look and commented softly, "Angie, I'm no longer the wife of a head-of-state".
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Jackie had exquisite manners, and the Office of Protocol under the Kennedy Administration was, in my opinion the most polished and sophisticated of any American President.

She even had her children's nanny teaching them the correct way to greet diplomats, Royalty etc...and they were practically toddlers during the Administration!:lol:
 
Orders of Precedence

Since I have no etiquette specialist in Missouri; unless otherwise directed in premeeting I follow this simple rule..... "Age before beauty and blood before title, merit before companion, female before male in couples and of course hostess always serves guests first. Bow for everyone and curtsy as straightly and deeply as possible. If the HRH appears, take a knee."

I have been looking for a list of precedence for familial heritage. As a member of many houses, I am often uncertain which to list, why and how. Without an official title card it makes it a wonder. Most of the time I am just Suzannah in America.

And please note that in different countries rules at the table are very different. Do not set your silver down in most countries until finish with the meal. In america, you can and you can even use your hands to hold foods like fries.
 
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TIH the Crown Princess, the Prince & the Princess Akishino bowing to HIH the Crown Prince Naruhito as seeing him off to Germany on June 21st, 2011.
**Pic** - credits Getty
 
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