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  #521  
Old 06-01-2008, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post

On US soil, she is Her Majesty the Queen - but she is not sovereign! She does not rule. Good heavens. And if she does not rule here, then certainly her son and his current-day wife do not merit a courtsey or bow here. Fortunately, on other travels to the US with either of his wives, Charles received appropriate courtesies from knowledgable sources.

The point - and it cannot seem to be overemphasized - is that manners are not aligned to protocol, and courtesy is akin to but not synonymous with either. Attempting to turn protocol into a discussion of "manners" is disingenous, at best. At certain tables in this world, belching is considered "good manners." If someone here would like to express their good manners at a royal banquet by belching, please raise your hand.

And finally, the genuine upshot of my story was that Mrs. Annenberg, of all people, should have been versed and rehearsed within an inch of her life on this. There is no stricter protocol than the Court of St. James; of all people, she should have known better. Even Charles was embarassed, even if she didn't have the presence of mind to be so. Especially the extremely obsequious nature of her physical demeanor. Truly cringe-worthy.
EVEN in Britain, it is NOT LAW that one must bow, etc. before the monarch. To do such is a show of respect and knowledge of the rules of polite culture. Anyone who does not wish to do so may feel free, but under scrutiny, it would appear as if one did not know the rules. It would be like using a butter knife to cut steak, and gabbing with one's mouth full in front of guests.
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  #522  
Old 06-02-2008, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Prince of Chota View Post
EVEN in Britain, it is NOT LAW that one must bow, etc. before the monarch. To do such is a show of respect and knowledge of the rules of polite culture. Anyone who does not wish to do so may feel free, but under scrutiny, it would appear as if one did not know the rules. It would be like using a butter knife to cut steak, and gabbing with one's mouth full in front of guests.
\

Bingo. I've been trying to say this all along. You can refuse to curtsey or bow (as gender appropriate); that is your prerogative. But it marks you as uncouth, in the same way that showing up to a formal event in informal clothes would do. In every situation there are situationally-appropriate ways to behave; how one would act at a heavy metal concert versus an orchestral concert are very different things. It's inappropriate to crowd-surf at a Kronos Quartet performance in the same way that it's inappropriate to be out there with your appreciation at a Metallica concert.

Similarly, it's inappropriate to refuse to curtsey to Her Majesty (if you are a subject, especially) in the same way that it's inappropriate to refuse to salute if you are in the military.
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  #523  
Old 06-03-2008, 02:48 AM
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I think of it like refusing to take your hat off in church, whether or not it is the denomination you believe in. It's rude...and how hard can it be to bend at the waist?!
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  #524  
Old 06-03-2008, 11:26 AM
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And yet, the Palace still says otherwise both on their website and to just about anyone who asks and before most events. Someone should call the Queen's staff to tell them we've found out their dirty little plan! They're tricking people into being rude or uncouth! I'd be pretty mad if I found out later on that I'd been lied to (although I wouldn't have acted on it). I guess it's better to be judgmental and kind of rude yourself than to let others be rude, though!
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  #525  
Old 06-03-2008, 02:21 PM
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Princess Letizia curtseys to Queen Sofia last Saturday:
Hola!
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  #526  
Old 06-04-2008, 12:49 PM
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Does anyone have any pictures of the new Princess Marie of Denmark doing her curtesy to Queen Margrethe ??
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  #527  
Old 06-05-2008, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by HRH Kerry View Post
Aren't the royal families rather "close"? I always thought that CP Victoria and CP Haakon were good friends and well as cousins. It could be that MM has love and respect for Victoria. Maybe it was done for those reasons. When I see my best friend I kiss her cheek and hug her. May this curtsy equates the same.
I do not think so. They do not curtsy to each other out of friendship. There are strict laws of protocol they follow. Queen Sofia had said once that the first time she did not have to curtsy to her mother in law, was when she (Sofia) became a Queen. The reason QE II declared the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra of Kent 2nd and 3rd in line was so they would not have to cursty to Camilla since after her marriage to P Charles she would be more senior than them.
Marie Chantal for example has to curtsy to Mary, Letizia,Maxima and Mette Marit since they are marred to Princes in line to a throne while she married into a non reigning family.
Prince Bertil of Sweden bowed and his bride curtsied to Silvia and Carl Gustav the day of their wedding.......Prince Bertil was in his 60's at the time and K CG was 30........
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  #528  
Old 06-05-2008, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Odette View Post
I do not think so. They do not curtsy to each other out of friendship. There are strict laws of protocol they follow. Queen Sofia had said once that the first time she did not have to curtsy to her mother in law, was when she (Sofia) became a Queen. The reason QE II declared the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra of Kent 2nd and 3rd in line was so they would not have to cursty to Camilla since after her marriage to P Charles she would be more senior than them.
Marie Chantal for example has to curtsy to Mary, Letizia,Maxima and Mette Marit since they are marred to Princes in line to a throne while she married into a non reigning family.
Prince Bertil of Sweden bowed and his bride curtsied to Silvia and Carl Gustav the day of their wedding.......Prince Bertil was in his 60's at the time and K CG was 30........
I haven't seen the picture of Mette-Marit curtsying to Victoria. If she did, it was in error (similar to what happened between her and Camilla). They are both Crown Princesses, one by birth one by marriage, but equal in rank. Mette-Marit need not curtsy to Victoria or Camilla out of protocol.

As for Marie-Chantal, I haven't seen a photo of her curtsying to the other Crown Princesses either, not would she be expected to I imagine. I would be interested in official policy in this matter as I am quite curious how the other royal families view the position of the GRF in protocol matters, seeing how most of them are related to the GRF.

Prince Bertil and his bride made a reverence to their king and queen. Age has nothing to do with this.
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  #529  
Old 06-05-2008, 02:06 PM
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Mette Marit curtseying to Victoria 10.6.2005
IBL Bildbyrå
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  #530  
Old 06-05-2008, 02:23 PM
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Didn't Mary make a curtsy to Margrethe on her wedding day? Or am I imagining things?

The Spanish make very deep curtsies, compared with the rest of the royal world.
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  #531  
Old 06-05-2008, 03:44 PM
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Mary courtsey twice to Margrethe:
first time when she was going with her father to Frederik TV 2 Kongelig

and second when she was going out with her husband
Wedding Of Danish Crown Prince Frederik and Mary Donaldson - Pictures - Zimbio

And the wedding with few courtseyings and bowings
NRK Nett-TV - hastighetsmåling
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  #532  
Old 06-05-2008, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
I haven't seen the picture of Mette-Marit curtsying to Victoria. If she did, it was in error (similar to what happened between her and Camilla). They are both Crown Princesses, one by birth one by marriage, but equal in rank. Mette-Marit need not curtsy to Victoria or Camilla out of protocol.

As for Marie-Chantal, I haven't seen a photo of her curtsying to the other Crown Princesses either, not would she be expected to I imagine. I would be interested in official policy in this matter as I am quite curious how the other royal families view the position of the GRF in protocol matters, seeing how most of them are related to the GRF.

Prince Bertil and his bride made a reverence to their king and queen. Age has nothing to do with this.
It would take a while for me to find the wedding photos of Prince Bertil where he was bowing and his bride was almost on the floor in front of the Swedish Monarchs but I can get it if you wish. The reference in age was my effort to point out that protocol is protocol even when it comes to an uncle who devoted his life to the crown waiting for his nephew to come of age, marry and allow him to finally marry Mrs Lillian Craig.
With regard to Mette Marit, I tend to agree with others who posted that Victoria has more seniority since she was born royal and the other CPs are married into the position.
I have a photo where Princess Diana was curtsing to King Constantine of Greece, in the middle of a field no less.
If the newly minted princesses keep protocol, Marie Chantal is of a lower standing that those who are waiting to reign and should curtsy to them. I doubt we will see such pictures since their meetings are mostly family affairs and not State visits.
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  #533  
Old 06-05-2008, 06:19 PM
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Thank you Lady Finn for the link. I swear Mette-Marit curtsies at the drop of a hat! No wonder she does them so well. She has plenty of practice! I genuinely believe this to be a case of either a mistake in protocol or a personal reverence, not a protocol one.

Protocol is protocol. A prince should bow to his king at any age. Being a Crown Princess by birth has no more seniority than being a Crown Princess by marriage in international protocol. Consorts are afforded the same courtesies as one born in the position. Mette-Marit just curtsies to everyone! She curtsied to Camilla, who also married into the position, even though Mette-Marit had been married longer!

I'm not suprised by hearing that Diana curtsied to King Constantine. The BRF are relatives of the GRF and still acknowlege their full titles as was evidenced by the scandal at the wedding of Charles and Diana. Other houses, such as Norway, do not recognized the HM and HRH styles of the GRF so it would be interesting to see if they bow and curtsy to the GRF members (except Mette-Marit of course, I'm sure she curtsies to them too!).

I have been looking around this afternoon and have yet to find a picture of Marie-Chantal curtsying to anyone that wasn't a monarch, but I'll keep looking. I would be suprised if she did.
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  #534  
Old 06-05-2008, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
Thank you Lady Finn for the link. I swear Mette-Marit curtsies at the drop of a hat! No wonder she does them so well. She has plenty of practice! I genuinely believe this to be a case of either a mistake in protocol or a personal reverence, not a protocol one.

Protocol is protocol. A prince should bow to his king at any age. Being a Crown Princess by birth has no more seniority than being a Crown Princess by marriage in international protocol. Consorts are afforded the same courtesies as one born in the position. Mette-Marit just curtsies to everyone! She curtsied to Camilla, who also married into the position, even though Mette-Marit had been married longer!

I'm not suprised by hearing that Diana curtsied to King Constantine. The BRF are relatives of the GRF and still acknowlege their full titles as was evidenced by the scandal at the wedding of Charles and Diana. Other houses, such as Norway, do not recognized the HM and HRH styles of the GRF so it would be interesting to see if they bow and curtsy to the GRF members (except Mette-Marit of course, I'm sure she curtsies to them too!).

I have been looking around this afternoon and have yet to find a picture of Marie-Chantal curtsying to anyone that wasn't a monarch, but I'll keep looking. I would be suprised if she did.
Which scandal are you referring to?
MC curtsied to the Royals outside the Church in London after her marriage but I doubt we will find any photos of her curtsying to anyone at any other time since all her get togethers are family affairs and there are no reporters around. I'd love to see any photos when you find them.
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  #535  
Old 06-05-2008, 10:34 PM
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Hi!!!
Do You Think You Could Post The Photo Of Princess Diana Curtseying To King Constantine!!! Thank U!!
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  #536  
Old 06-06-2008, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
Mette Marit curtseying to Victoria 10.6.2005
IBL Bildbyrå
I can't see a picture
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  #537  
Old 06-06-2008, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Odette View Post
Which scandal are you referring to?
MC curtsied to the Royals outside the Church in London after her marriage but I doubt we will find any photos of her curtsying to anyone at any other time since all her get togethers are family affairs and there are no reporters around. I'd love to see any photos when you find them.
When Charles and Diana were married, the Prime Minister of Greece refused to come to the wedding after he found out that BP had invited "HM King Constantine of the Hellenes" to the wedding. The PM took offense to the BRF referring to Constantine in this manner.
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  #538  
Old 06-06-2008, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sofajr View Post
I can't see a picture
Here you are sofajr

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4...6ed30a5dw3.jpg
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  #539  
Old 06-06-2008, 12:39 PM
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thanks a lot, Paty.
I find it odd that Mette-Marit curtseying to Victoria
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  #540  
Old 06-06-2008, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HRH MAZA View Post
Hi!!!
Do You Think You Could Post The Photo Of Princess Diana Curtseying To King Constantine!!! Thank U!!
I promise to start looking for it. I am sure it is in one of the Point De Vue mags and I have to go through them. Can the person who posted the wedding photos of K Carl Gustav with Silvia Sommerlath from 1976 tell me how to move them from the mag to this site? I tried to google and look for the PDV but the google will not get me anywhere and PDV only has archives for the last 4 years. Please be patient and I promise I will get going asap.
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