Bowing and Curtseying

[branchg]

Caroline's status was upgraded again upon the death of Rainier. She is now heiress to the throne as Hereditary Princesse de Monaco, which is superior to her rank through marriage to Ernst-August.

[Liz]

I would not curtsey to any member of royalty, not even to the ones that I admire. For the simple fact that I am not their subject.

[jcarroll]

Hello to everyone. I am new to the Royal Forums, but very interested in the Royal Courts of Europe. I am in need of information pertaining to the proper/official protocol that should be followed by the Royal Family all the way down to the courtiers.

JCarroll

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by branchg

Caroline's status was upgraded again upon the death of Rainier. She is now heiress to the throne as Hereditary Princesse de Monaco, which is superior to her rank through marriage to Ernst-August.

Τhe answer is yes and no. It depends on how the subject matter is addressed. Monaco is a principality, former protectorate of France that, as of the early 1990s, has become a sovereign state, full and equal member of the United Nations. With respect to international state affairs, therefore, she is important for she is the number #2 of a sovereign state and there is law and substance accorded to her title. In this regard, her husband is a private citizen and as important as any citizen of Germany.
Now, with respect to Gotha, the inner royal world and history, he is senior to her for he is the Head of the House of Hanover and per Gotha he is an HRH while until marrying him Caroline was an HSH (Serene Highness which, per se, is inferior to Royal Higness).
One interesting thing to be added here is that, should she ever become the Head of the Grimaldi family, she will be referred to as HRH.
A similar situation occurred with the Grand Ducal House of Luxembourg. The members of the House of Nassau were styled as HSH until Grand Duchess Charlotte's marriage to prince Felix of the defunct royal house of Bourbon-Parma. Ever since, the dukes and princes of Luxembourg are styled HRH, Royal Hignesses and not Serene anymore [the house was upgraded by virtue of prince Felix's royal status].

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by scooter

I shall look it up just to double check, but IIRC, she conspicuously curtsey'd to QEII, but equally conspicuously refused to do so for QEQM. Given the animosity and bad blood, this would not surprise me. QEQM was adamant that 'the divorcee' would NEVER be accorded HRH, even though prescedent was on Wallis' side.

You are correct. Upon marrying HRH the Duke of Windsor, Mrs. Simpson became legally HRH The Duchess of Windsor, by British Law. To the same extent, no matter what the Palace has done to appease the disenchanted public, Camilla is legally HRH The Princess of Wales.
Wallis curtsied deeply to The Queen because she had been instructed by her husband to show respect to the Sovereign and the Crown of Great Britain. The queen mother was never The Sovereign and as such Wallis was free to do as she pleased without showing disrespect to the The Crown.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by auntie

I read that Wallis Duchess of Windsor refused to curtsey to QEII, on the only occasion she was at a state event in the UK, the unveiling of Queen Mary's statue. Her husband the duke bowed every time, even when he was very sick. Is there other stories of not wanting to bow/curtsey? Another question, does a born royal have to bow, curtsey to a married into royal if he/she is of higher presedence? Ie does princess Benedickte have to curtsey to CP Mary? or even QSonja?

Prince Benedikte is HRH and therefore does not need to curtsy to Mary until the latter becomes HM the queen of Denmark. It must be understood that with respect to the Succession Line and the Constitution, princess Benedikte is more important than Mary. Mary's title is not backed by the Constitution. However, in terms of royal protocol, Mary as CP takes precedence over princess Benedikte.
Yes, princess Benedikte must curtsy to HM queen Sonja and HM queen Sylvia and so on.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Regina

Well I won't have much chances to curtsey because I don't have monarchy in my country. Even if I had I am not seeing myself curtseying to Dom Duarte and his wife.

You are correct. It is idiotic to curtsy to defunct royals.

[RhapsodyBrat]

Originally Posted by Regina

Well I won't have much chances to curtsey because I don't have monarchy in my country. Even if I had I am not seeing myself curtseying to Dom Duarte and his wife.

that goes the same for my country. even though many royals have visited our country in the past, i believe no one, or very few people, have curtsied to them simply because it's not in our culture and we are not used to doing that. we have not received any flak either for not curtsying.

[BeatrixFan]

I'd bow to the majority of Royals despite being a republican. I go with Germaine Greer who said that when 'in the presence', one obeys the house rules.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by RubyPrincess168

The only royal that I would object to curtseying is the Duchess of Cornwall, possibly Prince Albert of Monaco too. Does one have to bow/curtsey to HSHs though (as opposedto HRHs)?

He may be an HSH rather than an HRH but Prince Albert is a monarch and a head of state and is therefore due the respect given to someone in that position.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Iain

He may be an HSH rather than an HRH but Prince Albert is a monarch and a head of state and is therefore due the respect given to someone in that position.

An even better answer is that HSH, HRH or HM, when they are Heads of State (eg prince Albert, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, Queen of Denmark, respectively), they must be treated with equal respect and as equals with one another as per United Nations regulations for nation/state-members [Monaco enetered the UN in 1993] and international diplomatic protocol.

[RubyPrincess168]

Interesting. But if you had to seat them in a church or state banquet, what would be their order of precedence(using the three examples from above)? Does it go alphabetically, or who has reigned the longest, or something else?

[BeatrixFan]

It's who's reigned the longest. So currently I believe it's the King of Thailand first, QE2 second.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

It's who's reigned the longest. So currently I believe it's the King of Thailand first, QE2 second.

This is correct. A similar protocol applies also for ambassadors as representatives of various nations in each country. Seniority goes to the longest serving ambassador in that country [no matter how big or small, important or unimportant the nation he/she represents might be] and he/she is called the doyen(ne)* of the Diplomatic Corps in that particular country.

* Meaning dean in French.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite'

You are correct. Upon marrying HRH the Duke of Windsor, Mrs. Simpson became legally HRH The Duchess of Windsor, by British Law. To the same extent, no matter what the Palace has done to appease the disenchanted public, Camilla is legally HRH The Princess of Wales.
Wallis curtsied deeply to The Queen because she had been instructed by her husband to show respect to the Sovereign and the Crown of Great Britain. The queen mother was never The Sovereign and as such Wallis was free to do as she pleased without showing disrespect to the The Crown.

George VI issued letters patent in 1937 stating The Duke would continue to hold royal rank, but it was limited to him alone and explicitly denied to his wife and children. Given that, Wallis was never HRH because The Sovereign denied her the right to share her husband's rank.

The Duke never "instructed" his wife to curtsey or not curtsey. She certainly knew what the proper protocol was and extended the honour to those members of the royal family who were HRH as well. Obviously, she refused to curtsey to The Queen Mother, who played a major role in ensuring The Duchess never became HRH.

The situation with Camilla is completely different and she is married to Charles equally with the right to all of his titles and styles. She chose to be known as The Duchess of Cornwall (which is simply her style), rather than Princess of Wales out of respect to the memory of Princess Diana.

[LadyFinn]

Princess Letizia curtseys to Queen Sofia today in Madrid when The Royal family, Kings and Princes of Asturias, inaugurated the enlargement of the Prado´s museum.
Polfoto

[RoyalProtocol]

Originally Posted by LadyFinn

Princess Letizia curtseys to Queen Sofia today in Madrid when The Royal family, Kings and Princes of Asturias, inaugurated the enlargement of the Prado´s museum.
Polfoto

Lovely curtsey.

There were very few bows and curtsies at the state banquet this evening for King Abdullah given by The Queen at Buckingham Palace.

[RoyalProtocol]

There were lots and lots of curtseys at the service for The Queen's diamond wedding anniversary. An excellent exapmple of deference from those invited to royal events

[giov]

Princess Caroline looks like she is curtseying to Queen Magrethe in this pic taken in Versailles yesterday.
http://legacyeditorial.gettyimages.c...78007612&cdi=0

[RoyalProtocol]

Would YOU curtsey to Camilla? | the Daily Mail

Mrs. Gordon Brown curtseys to HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and accompanying article from the Daily Mail.