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  #3301  
Old 07-08-2019, 04:28 PM
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I'm a monarchist & have met several members of the BRF but I've never curtseyed to any of them because it's archaic nonsense IMO. I have no problem with anyone else doing it if they want to.
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  #3302  
Old 07-08-2019, 04:56 PM
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Oh, I thought a Texas dip was like barbecue sauce.
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  #3303  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:11 PM
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Texas Dip is nice but made only for balls gowns, when you see only the graceful part of the gesture. Imagine with a short dress or pants, it would appear so ugly. And of course only for young girls, an older lady couldn't rise up....
I'm wondering since America has no royalty to whom were these ladies curtseying. Maybe only for the débutantes bal.
And I'm astonished that it is named Texas. I would expect it to be commun in Boston high society or in the US south States, like New Orleans or Atlanta, before the secession war.
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  #3304  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I've been part of a discussion about the pic on Instagram. While it's only speculation I wonder if Haya's curtsey is either due to the fact that as a Second wife she's not afforded the same rank as a Princess consort or that since Dubai is part of the UAE her husband isn't seen as equal to a European HRH.
It could also be that she has a traditional view of rank - in discussions on Instagram I've seen members of royal families claim that any HSH should curtsey to an HRH which goes against what many of us instinctively feel that all heads of state are alike.
But Haya has a rank from bitth! She is a royal highness by blood, she is daughter of a King. She has an equal rank to prince Charles by blood, like him. She is Royal Highness and will never loose it. This is the reason she is titled HRH princess Haya and not Sheikha. The other wifes of Sheikh Mohamed are titled only Sheikhas, I don't know if they have HSH before the Sheikha..
By the way she is not second wife, I think she is the 6th, but this is nor the subject.
When Princess Alexia of Greece, daughter of King Konstantin got married in London, before the Queen, she curtseyed to the Queen but not to Prince Philip. She might have done it by respect to his age but she didn't. Prince Philip is a royal highness and not majesty, they are both HRH but Alexia is daughter of a King, prince philip not.
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  #3305  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
By the way she is not second wife, I think she is the 6th, but this is nor the subject.
Being a Second wife is a position and doesn't mean that you married someone right after hid First wife. Princess Haya as the daughter of a Hashemite king and a Sayyida would never be considered anything lesser than a Second wife. Because of her descent Princess Haya is one of the most highranking ladies in the Arab world.
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  #3306  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SLV View Post
Oh dear. That is quite a deep curtsey. Reminds me of the curtseys in the Sisi-films.
It's basically to curtseying as full prostration is to bowing.

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Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
And I'm astonished that it is named Texas. I would expect it to be commun in Boston high society or in the US south States, like New Orleans or Atlanta, before the secession war.
Make no mistake, Texas is a part of Dixie. The antebellum planter aristocracy of the South (the "American gentry") was the closest thing the United States ever had to landed nobility, and many southerners still yearn for that genteel image as a part of the Southern identity.

And Texans, on top of being Southerners, also have an incessant drive to always try to do things, for lack of a better term, "bigger" than everyone else. That's part of Texas's own state identity.
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  #3307  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
Texas Dip is nice but made only for balls gowns, when you see only the graceful part of the gesture. Imagine with a short dress or pants, it would appear so ugly. And of course only for young girls, an older lady couldn't rise up....
I'm wondering since America has no royalty to whom were these ladies curtseying. Maybe only for the débutantes bal.
And I'm astonished that it is named Texas. I would expect it to be commun in Boston high society or in the US south States, like New Orleans or Atlanta, before the secession war.


If you find it too difficult you can always cheat and still make it appear graceful; you’re under a big ball gown so no one can see what your legs are doing.
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  #3308  
Old 07-14-2019, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Being a Second wife is a position and doesn't mean that you married someone right after hid First wife. Princess Haya as the daughter of a Hashemite king and a Sayyida would never be considered anything lesser than a Second wife. Because of her descent Princess Haya is one of the most highranking ladies in the Arab world.
Thanks for exlapanation about second wife.
Agree with you a out her high position by birth. And for this reason I was wondering why she curtseyd
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  #3309  
Old 07-14-2019, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
Thanks for exlapanation about second wife.
Agree with you a out her high position by birth. And for this reason I was wondering why she curtseyd
Princess Haya might have curtsied out of respect since Prince Charles is older. As you said, they are both HRH, children of a monarch.

To add, in the Arab world, The Hashemite, the royal house of which Princess Haya is from is descended from the the great-grandfather of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. They also ruled Mecca, the holiest city of the muslims, continuously from 10th century until 1926 when the House of Saud took over.

Princess Haya continues to use her title and style even after becoming the 6th and last wife of the Emir of Dubai. Her husband and wives only has the style of "HH."

Certainly, they are not “a royal family of carpetbaggers and parvenus.”
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  #3310  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Fijiro View Post
They didn't need to bow to the QueenMother, she was not the Monarchy, if they did it was probably out of respect. The QueenMother bows to the Queen.

Sorry, but the Queen Mother was titled "Majesty", she was a wife and mother of a british sovereign. So, of course her grand children, especially those completely untiteled like the Philips or Armstrong-Jones, were expected to curtsey a woman, being Queen (consort) during the war years, last Queen-empress of India! The only time I saw her curtsey to her daughter was at her coronation, just like Queen Mary did a (little) curtsey at her sons coronation in 1937.
Her predecessors Queens Alexandra and Mary have certainly also always been curtsied by junior members of the RF (which was by nature everyone except the sovereign himself and his wife!). "Majesties" no matter the monarch her/ himself or royal persons like the Queen Mother are always entitled to be curtsied, both home and abroad. Everything else would have caused rised eyebrows.
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  #3311  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:15 AM
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To be fair, I have seen footages of the Queen Mum just being greeted by Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward, David, Sarah, Peter, Zara, William etc. with a kiss. No bow and no curtsey. She seemed not interested in necks and knees going down.
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  #3312  
Old 07-14-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
To add, in the Arab world, The Hashemite, the royal house of which Princess Haya is from is descended from the the great-grandfather of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.
In fact, they're directly descended from Muhammad if you count the female line (the Hashemite dynasty descends in the male line from Hasan ibn Ali, who was one of the two sons of Muhammad's cousin, Ali, and Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah bint Muhammad).


So, yeah, the Hashemite dynasty is packing a lot of prestige. On top of that, there's the extra prestige bonus that Haya's great-great-grandfather led the Great Arab Revolt, which removed the Ottoman yoke from the Arabs' neck once and for all.
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  #3313  
Old 07-17-2019, 05:31 PM
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In fact, they're directly descended from Muhammad if you count the female line (the Hashemite dynasty descends in the male line from Hasan ibn Ali, who was one of the two sons of Muhammad's cousin, Ali, and Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah bint Muhammad).


So, yeah, the Hashemite dynasty is packing a lot of prestige. On top of that, there's the extra prestige bonus that Haya's great-great-grandfather led the Great Arab Revolt, which removed the Ottoman yoke from the Arabs' neck once and for all.
Extremely detailed and interesting information, thanks. I realize that Princess Haya is by blood so highly ranked, that she could difficulty do an equal marriage. Maybe she could marry an Iraki prince, if they are still remaining or a descendant of the Ottoman sultans, otherwise in the Muslim world all the possible matches including her actual husband are of a lower rank than she is.
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  #3314  
Old 07-17-2019, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
Extremely detailed and interesting information, thanks. I realize that Princess Haya is by blood so highly ranked, that she could difficulty do an equal marriage. Maybe she could marry an Iraki prince, if they are still remaining or a descendant of the Ottoman sultans, otherwise in the Muslim world all the possible matches including her actual husband are of a lower rank than she is.
The remaining members of the Iraqi royal family are descended from Prince Zeid, the brother of Kings Abdullah I of Jordan and Faisal I of Iraq. His still living son Prince Raad has four sons and several grandsons.
I've read somewhere that at the beginning of the 20th century it was considered that the most prestigious families of the Middle East were the Imperial family of the Ottomans, the Royal family of Egypt and the Hashemites.
In addition to them I'd add the Imperial Qajar dynasty of Persia and the already at the time demoted and humiliated Mughal dynasty of India.
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  #3315  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:44 PM
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His still living son Prince Raad has four sons and several grandsons.
Which brings to mind yet another prestige boost for the House of Hashim: Prince Ra'ad's eldest son, Prince Zeid bin Ra'ad Zeid al-Hussein, I believe, deserves a lot of respect for his tenure as United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. He made a few very powerful enemies, but he was absolutely faithful to his portfolio, and any enemies he did make were so made precisely because he did not stray from his portfolio for the sake of political considerations.
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  #3316  
Old 07-24-2019, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
To be fair, I have seen footages of the Queen Mum just being greeted by Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward, David, Sarah, Peter, Zara, William etc. with a kiss. No bow and no curtsey. She seemed not interested in necks and knees going down.
Oh this seems interesting.

Have you seen any photos of Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester and Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent curtseying to Queen Mum?
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  #3317  
Old 07-24-2019, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
To be fair, I have seen footages of the Queen Mum just being greeted by Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward, David, Sarah, Peter, Zara, William etc. with a kiss. No bow and no curtsey. She seemed not interested in necks and knees going down.

Then you haven´t seen a lot about her...
Every time there was a situation she was greeted by her family, she was greeted with deep curtsies (except her eldest daughter, of course)!

I remember seeing her waiting for the family at a pier in Scotland when the RF arrived by Britannia for their annual holidays (the Queen Mother obviously having been arrived before), when the late Pss Diana did a deep curtsey as well as Anne or Lady Sarah (then Armstr. Jones). Charles and his brothers kissing her hand and then bowing their heads.

The same at one of her last birthdays in the garden of Clarence House where all her family gathered: Her granddaughters and great-granddaughters curtseying while the men bowed their heads.

(ca. 0:22)

She might have been quite another type of QM other than Queen Mary, but these kind of things seemed to matter a lot to her!
That was the same as it had been done for Queen Ingrid, who was always greeted with curtsies by female family members except Margrethe and Anne-Marie who is also a Queen.
All Queens (no matter "consort" or not) bear the title of a "Majesty". And with that goes the prerogative of being curtsied. If this tradition or protocol is being performed or not depends on the RF itself. In England, however, these things still seem to be very important - at least within the family circle itself!
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  #3318  
Old 08-18-2019, 12:20 PM
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There has been debate over bowing and curtsying being 'subservient' or 'showing obediance'. Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't have a real problem with the action being performed for that reason..if they are members of the royal family of your nation at least. They represent your nation and you recognize their reign over you, so show them you are a loyal subject..to their family, and to the nation.
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  #3319  
Old 08-18-2019, 01:01 PM
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There has been debate over bowing and curtsying being 'subservient' or 'showing obediance'. Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't have a real problem with the action being performed for that reason..if they are members of the royal family of your nation at least. They represent your nation and you recognize their reign over you, so show them you are a loyal subject..to their family, and to the nation.
It baffles me that anno 2018 you consider yourself "a subject" rather than a proud, independent citizen of Great-Britain. But soit, everyone his or her own preference of course. But my point is: someone giving a nice decent normal handshake to Her Majesty can manifest as a more loyal and trustworthy compatriot than another one whom cracks her knees in the deepest révérence...

Remember John Brown. A stubborn hard-headed unwilling person whom missed natural elegance and finesse in bowing, kissing hands, Your Majesty this, Your Majesty that. He became a true friend of Queen Victoria.

In the end it is an empty gesture which does not really reveal the true adherence and loyalty. Remember that Judas kissed Jesus before he traitored him... It is all theatre. The one going down and walking backwards in utter adoration can be the most vile backstabber. The one whom unwillingly offers a minimal handshake can be a Rock on which the monarchy thrives.
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  #3320  
Old 08-20-2019, 07:18 AM
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I think you have to understand what each individual person's unique background is. Elizabeth has been my queen all my life. Should I have met her I would have courtsied as a mark of my deep and abiding respect.
I have met Charles and I curtsied as a mark of respect.
The thing is that to me that is what we do.

Different traditions for differing countries. I giggled when H&M were on the balcony and they had lip readers telling us that Harry was trying to get Meghan to turn around. Instead of saying they were obviously fighting, they should have picked up that "My Country Is Of Thee" might be a patriotic song but she has not been around long enough to recognise the colonies nicked the music for it from the British national anthem. That recognition of "God Save the Queen" is not yet automatically recognised as her new national anthem. So, unlike the rest of the balcony she didn't automatically about turn and snap to attention.

You see if a visitor did that we would politely overlook it just as HM did with Barak Obama at a State Banquet. It is not his N.A. and like Meghan, he took time to realise what happened.

Traditions of other countries are to be accepted as normal for for the people of those countries and neither they nor their country should be held up to ridicule. To call them empty gestures os your personal opinion. You are entitled to it, but IMHO you merely display a rudeness and arrogance at odds with your intellect.
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