Bowing and Curtseying

[Empress]

It is out of respect for the history of the institution, and the monarch, or princely person embodies that history..

I would curtsey, but I am a traditionalist. I suppose it depends on your defintiion of what is courtesy and what isn't. I find it respectful to curtsey and show respect for the insitution, and the fact that a particular monarch, especially Betatrix or Elizabeth, have given up a life that they might have preferred to live, in order to lead one for the sake of duty.

Its a question of personal choice I suppose, and I choose to curtsey out of respect for the history of it, and in some cases because I admire the person.

EDIT: A particular government can not trace its geneaology back to previous rulers who actually did govern the coutnry, whereas most monarchs did. It is also a question of tradition. No American/French/Russian/German Chancellor, president or whatever has ever been curtseyed to, while some men might very well have bowed. At the same time, George Bush did bow, (a very old courtly gentlemanly gesture steeped in history) and Laura Bush did bob a very small curtsey on meeting QEII if reports are to be believed, as did Bill Clinton. So, I suppose if other heads of state see fit to bow or curtsey, I don't see why it should be seen as a gesture of submission. But it's all in the eyes of the beholder I suppose. Perhaps I don't feel it a submissive gesture as I do not feel that any one person is a better person than another.

And if it is sold that way now- well times change and tradition evolves a bit, and if people prefer to see it that way, then what is wrong with that?

 

[Elspeth]

I read that Wallis Duchess of Windsor refused to curtsey to QEII, on the only occasion she was at a state event in the UK, the unveiling of Queen Mary's statue. Her husband the duke bowed every time, even when he was very sick. Is there other stories of not wanting to bow/curtsey? Another question, does a born royal have to bow, curtsey to a married into royal if he/she is of higher presedence? Ie does princess Benedickte have to curtsey to CP Mary? or even QSonja?

I think the Duchess of Windsor did curtsey, or at least bow, to the Queen; she just refused to do so to the Queen Mother. Given the acrimonious history between the two of them, that refusal is understandable.

 

[auntie]

There is definitely a picture of the Duke+Duchess of Windsor and the Duke and Glouctesor, the Queens mum all by the unveiling of Queen Mary's memorial, and Wallis conspiciously not curtsying, it was the first time she came to the UK on a official visit.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Cherie Blair I recall she refused to curtsey or did it in an embarrassing way at several occasions, and not only in the movie she's famous for opponent stuff like that. I think QE II stands above such behaviour, as it never reflects on herself but on the person who does not know or does not want to know the protocol

People who don't respect the monarchy should stay away - refusing to bow or curtsey does not ridicule or embarrass the monarch but always the person and his or her purposes.

 

[bbb]

as a texan i would never curtsey as a gesture of submission, in my bob (could never get the correct cutsey down ;0 ) it would be a form of respect for the history and person. for instance i would never bow to albert but i would to caroline.

 

[Regina]

Well I won't have much chances to curtsey because I don't have monarchy in my country. Even if I had I am not seeing myself curtseying to Dom Duarte and his wife.
If I met Queen Beatrix or Queen Elizabeth I wouldn't resist to curtsey to them because I admire these Queens soo much, they are such great examples! I would curtsey to express my admiration and respect to those specific two great Royal Ladies.
I would also curtsey to Princess Grace but never to her son, Prince Albert or to Princess Stephanie.

If a British subject was in presence of the Queen and refused to bow I think the Queen wouldn't care. She and everyone else wouldn't even comment on it but I guess he would certainly be ostracized by societal circles. This subject would basically be committing social death (except with anti-monarchy circles). I don't know how is it on other Royal Families.

 

[msleiman]

I think that I would also curtsey only to a few people. Queen Elizabeth is one of them, I know that would not have to but I would.

 

[Madame Royale]

To each and every reigning sovereign and their consort, I would curtsy without a moments hesitation to do so.

 

[RubyPrincess168]

The only royal that I would object to curtseying is the Duchess of Cornwall, possibly Prince Albert of Monaco too. Does one have to bow/curtsey to HSHs though (as opposedto HRHs)?

 

[Fashionista100]

Yes, you have to bow or curtsey to them. HSH is one step below HRH. Actually Princess Caroline had her status upgraded slightly where she married her third husband. He was an HRH and she was an HSH. Upon her marriage she became an HRH too.

 

[branchg]

Caroline's status was upgraded again upon the death of Rainier. She is now heiress to the throne as Hereditary Princesse de Monaco, which is superior to her rank through marriage to Ernst-August.

 

[Liz]

I would not curtsey to any member of royalty, not even to the ones that I admire. For the simple fact that I am not their subject.

 

[jcarroll]

Proper Protocoal

Hello to everyone. I am new to the Royal Forums, but very interested in the Royal Courts of Europe. I am in need of information pertaining to the proper/official protocol that should be followed by the Royal Family all the way down to the courtiers.

JCarroll

 

[Philippe Egalite']

Caroline's status was upgraded again upon the death of Rainier. She is now heiress to the throne as Hereditary Princesse de Monaco, which is superior to her rank through marriage to Ernst-August.

Τhe answer is yes and no. It depends on how the subject matter is addressed. Monaco is a principality, former protectorate of France that, as of the early 1990s, has become a sovereign state, full and equal member of the United Nations. With respect to international state affairs, therefore, she is important for she is the number #2 of a sovereign state and there is law and substance accorded to her title. In this regard, her husband is a private citizen and as important as any citizen of Germany.
Now, with respect to Gotha, the inner royal world and history, he is senior to her for he is the Head of the House of Hanover and per Gotha he is an HRH while until marrying him Caroline was an HSH (Serene Highness which, per se, is inferior to Royal Higness).
One interesting thing to be added here is that, should she ever become the Head of the Grimaldi family, she will be referred to as HRH.
A similar situation occurred with the Grand Ducal House of Luxembourg. The members of the House of Nassau were styled as HSH until Grand Duchess Charlotte's marriage to prince Felix of the defunct royal house of Bourbon-Parma. Ever since, the dukes and princes of Luxembourg are styled HRH, Royal Hignesses and not Serene anymore [the house was upgraded by virtue of prince Felix's royal status].

 

[Philippe Egalite']

I shall look it up just to double check, but IIRC, she conspicuously curtsey'd to QEII, but equally conspicuously refused to do so for QEQM. Given the animosity and bad blood, this would not surprise me. QEQM was adamant that 'the divorcee' would NEVER be accorded HRH, even though prescedent was on Wallis' side.

You are correct. Upon marrying HRH the Duke of Windsor, Mrs. Simpson became legally HRH The Duchess of Windsor, by British Law. To the same extent, no matter what the Palace has done to appease the disenchanted public, Camilla is legally HRH The Princess of Wales.
Wallis curtsied deeply to The Queen because she had been instructed by her husband to show respect to the Sovereign and the Crown of Great Britain. The queen mother was never The Sovereign and as such Wallis was free to do as she pleased without showing disrespect to the The Crown.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

I read that Wallis Duchess of Windsor refused to curtsey to QEII, on the only occasion she was at a state event in the UK, the unveiling of Queen Mary's statue. Her husband the duke bowed every time, even when he was very sick. Is there other stories of not wanting to bow/curtsey? Another question, does a born royal have to bow, curtsey to a married into royal if he/she is of higher presedence? Ie does princess Benedickte have to curtsey to CP Mary? or even QSonja?

Prince Benedikte is HRH and therefore does not need to curtsy to Mary until the latter becomes HM the queen of Denmark. It must be understood that with respect to the Succession Line and the Constitution, princess Benedikte is more important than Mary. Mary's title is not backed by the Constitution. However, in terms of royal protocol, Mary as CP takes precedence over princess Benedikte.
Yes, princess Benedikte must curtsy to HM queen Sonja and HM queen Sylvia and so on.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

Well I won't have much chances to curtsey because I don't have monarchy in my country. Even if I had I am not seeing myself curtseying to Dom Duarte and his wife.

You are correct. It is idiotic to curtsy to defunct royals.

 

[RhapsodyBrat]

Well I won't have much chances to curtsey because I don't have monarchy in my country. Even if I had I am not seeing myself curtseying to Dom Duarte and his wife.

that goes the same for my country. even though many royals have visited our country in the past, i believe no one, or very few people, have curtsied to them simply because it's not in our culture and we are not used to doing that. we have not received any flak either for not curtsying.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I'd bow to the majority of Royals despite being a republican. I go with Germaine Greer who said that when 'in the presence', one obeys the house rules.

 

[Iain]

The only royal that I would object to curtseying is the Duchess of Cornwall, possibly Prince Albert of Monaco too. Does one have to bow/curtsey to HSHs though (as opposedto HRHs)?

He may be an HSH rather than an HRH but Prince Albert is a monarch and a head of state and is therefore due the respect given to someone in that position.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

He may be an HSH rather than an HRH but Prince Albert is a monarch and a head of state and is therefore due the respect given to someone in that position.

An even better answer is that HSH, HRH or HM, when they are Heads of State (eg prince Albert, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, Queen of Denmark, respectively), they must be treated with equal respect and as equals with one another as per United Nations regulations for nation/state-members [Monaco enetered the UN in 1993] and international diplomatic protocol.

 

[RubyPrincess168]

Interesting. But if you had to seat them in a church or state banquet, what would be their order of precedence(using the three examples from above)? Does it go alphabetically, or who has reigned the longest, or something else?

 

[BeatrixFan]

It's who's reigned the longest. So currently I believe it's the King of Thailand first, QE2 second.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

It's who's reigned the longest. So currently I believe it's the King of Thailand first, QE2 second.

This is correct. A similar protocol applies also for ambassadors as representatives of various nations in each country. Seniority goes to the longest serving ambassador in that country [no matter how big or small, important or unimportant the nation he/she represents might be] and he/she is called the doyen(ne)* of the Diplomatic Corps in that particular country.

* Meaning dean in French.

 

[branchg]

You are correct. Upon marrying HRH the Duke of Windsor, Mrs. Simpson became legally HRH The Duchess of Windsor, by British Law. To the same extent, no matter what the Palace has done to appease the disenchanted public, Camilla is legally HRH The Princess of Wales.
Wallis curtsied deeply to The Queen because she had been instructed by her husband to show respect to the Sovereign and the Crown of Great Britain. The queen mother was never The Sovereign and as such Wallis was free to do as she pleased without showing disrespect to the The Crown.

George VI issued letters patent in 1937 stating The Duke would continue to hold royal rank, but it was limited to him alone and explicitly denied to his wife and children. Given that, Wallis was never HRH because The Sovereign denied her the right to share her husband's rank.

The Duke never "instructed" his wife to curtsey or not curtsey. She certainly knew what the proper protocol was and extended the honour to those members of the royal family who were HRH as well. Obviously, she refused to curtsey to The Queen Mother, who played a major role in ensuring The Duchess never became HRH.

The situation with Camilla is completely different and she is married to Charles equally with the right to all of his titles and styles. She chose to be known as The Duchess of Cornwall (which is simply her style), rather than Princess of Wales out of respect to the memory of Princess Diana.

 

[LadyFinn]

Princess Letizia curtseys to Queen Sofia today in Madrid when The Royal family, Kings and Princes of Asturias, inaugurated the enlargement of the Prado´s museum.
Polfoto

 

[RoyalProtocol]

Princess Letizia curtseys to Queen Sofia today in Madrid when The Royal family, Kings and Princes of Asturias, inaugurated the enlargement of the Prado´s museum.
Polfoto

Lovely curtsey.

There were very few bows and curtsies at the state banquet this evening for King Abdullah given by The Queen at Buckingham Palace.

 

[RoyalProtocol]

There were lots and lots of curtseys at the service for The Queen's diamond wedding anniversary. An excellent exapmple of deference from those invited to royal events

 

[giov]

Princess Caroline looks like she is curtseying to Queen Magrethe in this pic taken in Versailles yesterday.
http://legacyeditorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=78007612&cdi=0

 

[RoyalProtocol]

Would YOU curtsey to Camilla? | the Daily Mail

Mrs. Gordon Brown curtseys to HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and accompanying article from the Daily Mail.