The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #2721  
Old 08-02-2017, 03:24 PM
Pranter's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 6,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Of course you are completely free to go down your knees and mumble in utter adoration, with servitude and obedience "Your Royal Highness" to Meghan Markle. No one will stop you to do so. For myself I think that this will be the summum of the theatre play called How-Busy-We-Are-With-The-Who-Is-Fooling-Who-Here ?
You really need to add some sugar to your coffee.


LaRae
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2722  
Old 08-03-2017, 04:32 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
You really need to add some sugar to your coffee.


LaRae
Not at all. I have common sense. A handshake between two individuals is a greeting on par. Going down to your knees or making bow, is an act of servitude, of obedience, of reverence. I can imagine someone doing so towards the high-and wellborn lady Margrethe Alexandrine Thorhildur Ingrid von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, the current embodiment of the ancient Danish Crown.

I can not imagine someone with a sound mind doing so to a Máxima Zorreguieta, to a Meghan Markle, to a Marie Cavallier. Why would a self-conscious citizen suddenly going down the cracking knees and mumble "Your Royal Highness" to them? That is just a theatre play without any meaning.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2723  
Old 08-03-2017, 07:11 AM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Not at all. I have common sense. A handshake between two individuals is a greeting on par. Going down to your knees or making bow, is an act of servitude, of obedience, of reverence. I can imagine someone doing so towards the high-and wellborn lady Margrethe Alexandrine Thorhildur Ingrid von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, the current embodiment of the ancient Danish Crown.

I can not imagine someone with a sound mind doing so to a Máxima Zorreguieta, to a Meghan Markle, to a Marie Cavallier. Why would a self-conscious citizen suddenly going down the cracking knees and mumble "Your Royal Highness" to them? That is just a theatre play without any meaning.
With all due respect, you are confusing 'common sense' with pomposity.
To give reverence and respect to someone because their family was given a certain rank centuries ago, but not doing the same for someone who is married into a royal house, is a distinction made by, fortunately, very few.
When I met the King of Norway while walking some time ago, it didn't occur to me not to slightly curtsey as we passed, and say 'Good evening, Your Majesty'. I cannot imagine not doing the same for Her Majesty the Queen, just because she was born into a 'commoner' family 80 years ago. Her efforts in representing, preserving and protecting the institution of monarchy and the Royal House of Norway is not one inch shy of the work the King has done, and to distinguish between a King and Queen because of the misguided belief that bloodlines is the main thing that keeps the monarchy going, is passé.
When curtseying, or showing reverence in any way, to a royal, one is showing respect and reverence to the office they hold, the work they do and the history and institution they represent.

Of course, for someone who constantly refers to the Queen of Spain by her maiden name, the Queen of the Netherlands similarly, it comes as no surprise that this view is espoused. To try and pass it off as anything but silly snobbery and pettiness however, is pointless.
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #2724  
Old 08-03-2017, 07:38 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post
With all due respect, you are confusing 'common sense' with pomposity.
To give reverence and respect to someone because their family was given a certain rank centuries ago, but not doing the same for someone who is married into a royal house, is a distinction made by, fortunately, very few.
When I met the King of Norway while walking some time ago, it didn't occur to me not to slightly curtsey as we passed, and say 'Good evening, Your Majesty'. I cannot imagine not doing the same for Her Majesty the Queen, just because she was born into a 'commoner' family 80 years ago. Her efforts in representing, preserving and protecting the institution of monarchy and the Royal House of Norway is not one inch shy of the work the King has done, and to distinguish between a King and Queen because of the misguided belief that bloodlines is the main thing that keeps the monarchy going, is passé.
When curtseying, or showing reverence in any way, to a royal, one is showing respect and reverence to the office they hold, the work they do and the history and institution they represent.

Of course, for someone who constantly refers to the Queen of Spain by her maiden name, the Queen of the Netherlands similarly, it comes as no surprise that this view is espoused. To try and pass it off as anything but silly snobbery and pettiness however, is pointless.
I think the summum of pomposity is going down to the knees, or making a bow (= showing servitude, obedience, reverence) for a person which just happens to be married to a HRH.

Note that we not only talk about Queens but also about a Meghan Markle or a Sofia Hellqvist, or a Mabel Wisse Smit. Just because they married (will marry) a royal you are willing to go down your knees? Be my guest, I would say. Do what your self-assured personality and sound mind reflexes inside you and sink down your knees for Meghan, Sofia or Mabel. No idea why... but no one will stop you anyway.

A handshake would equally be perfect (and possibly far more at ease for the ladies themselves!).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2725  
Old 08-03-2017, 08:00 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 9,670
What it boils down to, frankly, is what one feels comfortable doing. No one would expect Duc to be any less than who he and to express himself however he wishes to and the same goes for each and every one of us. There's no right way or wrong way when something is totally optional. Its our choice.
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.”
~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #2726  
Old 08-03-2017, 11:04 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
What it boils down to, frankly, is what one feels comfortable doing. No one would expect Duc to be any less than who he and to express himself however he wishes to and the same goes for each and every one of us. There's no right way or wrong way when something is totally optional. Its our choice.
Sure it is. I feel the idea here is: "a cursty is such fun". But what is the message of making a curtsy or a bow? No one goes down the knees for anyone else. That is exactly what makes a curtsy or a bow special: you show servitude and obedience to a person.

While anyone is perfectly free to do so, I was astonished to read from a fellow poster from the USA that she "would gladly curtsy to any of the working royal family members", apparently because they work so hard, and for their commitment to service.

Eeeeerrrrmmmmm..... the nurses in the care home right around the corner work hard and are deeply committed to their blessed work. No one bows to them. But then some fellow posters will do for Meghan. Or Kate. Or Máxima. Anyway: posters feeling the knees getting wobbly in the sight of royals: do what you want.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2727  
Old 08-04-2017, 01:30 PM
duchessrachel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Birmingham, United States
Posts: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Sure it is. I feel the idea here is: "a cursty is such fun". But what is the message of making a curtsy or a bow? No one goes down the knees for anyone else. That is exactly what makes a curtsy or a bow special: you show servitude and obedience to a person.

While anyone is perfectly free to do so, I was astonished to read from a fellow poster from the USA that she "would gladly curtsy to any of the working royal family members", apparently because they work so hard, and for their commitment to service.

Eeeeerrrrmmmmm..... the nurses in the care home right around the corner work hard and are deeply committed to their blessed work. No one bows to them. But then some fellow posters will do for Meghan. Or Kate. Or Máxima. Anyway: posters feeling the knees getting wobbly in the sight of royals: do what you want.

Let me elaborate further. The service that the royal families do was not chosen by them. They were born into it and their life was decided for them. They did not get to make this choice. Those who marry into the royal families, as far as I am concerned, are just as much a royal as those who were "high and well-born" as you called it in a previous post. You defeat your own argument with that phrase, by the way. These people who marry into the royal families sever any chance of ever being able to make a choice for themselves in the future. If anything, they are to be more admired, but I admire blood royals and royals by marriage the same. This is really a fruitless conversation we are having because I won't change your mind and you definitely won't change my mind.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2728  
Old 08-04-2017, 02:14 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 5,998
In England morganatic marriage isn't recognised. Under common law a person who marries into the royal family is just as 'royal' as blood royals.

Catherine for example is both a princess and a peeress. So if The Duke of Cambridge is deserving of a bow of the head, The Duchess of Cambridge is equally deserving of a curtsey.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2729  
Old 08-04-2017, 03:10 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Tennessee, United States
Posts: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Just because they married (will marry) a royal you are willing to go down your knees?.
If they married a royal then they become a royal. Period.

I don't understand how one can be so fixated on titles/status some women are given by birth, yet willing to wave off the same titles/status if given through marriage. What an illogical, nonsensical way of thinking!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2730  
Old 08-04-2017, 08:34 PM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 1729 Noneofyourbusiness Drive, United States
Posts: 2,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
I am an American and I got attacked awhile back for being supportive of curtsying to the royal family, so there is no winning this argument.
I will not curtsy to anyone I don't feel deserves it and to me being born or marrying someone does not mean you deserve it.
But the idea that us being American negates us from standing against archaic, insulting beliefs like the ones duc et par always expresses regarding "commoners" and then marrying royalty does not sit well with me. It is this idea and "custom" that spurs on those who look down on the Middleton's as upstarts who don't know their place.
__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
  #2731  
Old 08-04-2017, 09:03 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spring Hill, United States
Posts: 2,884
There is no such thing as royalty. It is a made up concept by those with the biggest swords, so to speak. They kept their town folk and ministers, at bay, by making up this, I was sent by God to rule over you stuff. Hence the anointing, etc. There is nothing special about them. In times when people were bullied into this state of affairs, bowing and curtseying was expected to show you were "royal". Today, we may like the queen, she is a very nice person, but she is no better than any other person. So, if you marry a royal, you are a royal. So, if I stand in a garage I am a car. It's archaic, like slavery and serfdom. And wrong.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2732  
Old 08-04-2017, 09:14 PM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 1729 Noneofyourbusiness Drive, United States
Posts: 2,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post

Of course, for someone who constantly refers to the Queen of Spain by her maiden name, the Queen of the Netherlands similarly, it comes as no surprise that this view is espoused. To try and pass it off as anything but silly snobbery and pettiness however, is pointless.
I also have a problem with this attitude as well. Queen Letizia and especially Queen Maxima have conducted themselves well and have represented their countries well. Sometimes the way these "commoner brides" act put the born princesses to shame.
__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
  #2733  
Old 08-04-2017, 09:40 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 793
There is a difference in a full blown curtsy or bow as was done in years past (and occasionally by some people currently) and the head bob we see from most people now as a sign of respect for a royal's position. As a US citizen, I doubt I would curtsy (for one thing, I probably couldn't do a real curtsy) but I can't say I wouldn't bob my head when shaking hands if i got to meet Queen Elizabeth.

I agree, some consorts have conducted themselves better than some of those born royal, apparently excepting Prince Henrik at the moment.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2734  
Old 08-04-2017, 10:52 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 2,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
There is no such thing as royalty. It is a made up concept by those with the biggest swords, so to speak. They kept their town folk and ministers, at bay, by making up this, I was sent by God to rule over you stuff. Hence the anointing, etc. There is nothing special about them. In times when people were bullied into this state of affairs, bowing and curtseying was expected to show you were "royal". Today, we may like the queen, she is a very nice person, but she is no better than any other person. So, if you marry a royal, you are a royal. So, if I stand in a garage I am a car. It's archaic, like slavery and serfdom. And wrong.

Again, bowing and cutsying has nothing to do with one thinking of him/herself as "inferior" to someone else. It is just a social custom to greet people like shaking hands. In the past, it used to be done not only to royalty, but pretty much to any courtier. In some countries like Japan, bowing is still the standard way to greet anyone (they even bowed to me when I was there and I can assure you I am not even remotely superior to anyone or don't even look superior in any sense).

Basically, when you assume that a lady who performs a curtsy thinks of the person she cursties to as "better" than her, you are just projecting the values and preconceptions of your own culture onto somebody else's culture. Princess Anne for example performed a deep curtsy to King Felipe a few weeks ago at the Guildall dinner and I'm pretty sure she doesn't think of herself as being inferior to Felipe.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2735  
Old 09-04-2017, 09:25 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Westfield, New Jersey, United States
Posts: 150
Would someone be required to curtsy to Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra of Kent, is it that she is a lesser royal that you don't have to bow.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2736  
Old 09-04-2017, 09:29 PM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 4,108
No one is required to bow or curtesy to anyone. You don't even have to do it to Queen Elizabeth II. They are not going to arrest you if you don't do it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2737  
Old 09-04-2017, 09:30 PM
Dman's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 13,465
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery View Post
Would someone be required to curtsy to Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra of Kent, is it that she is a lesser royal that you don't have to bow.
There's no requirements to curtsy or bow but, yes, you can curtsy and bow to Princess Alexandra.
__________________
"WE CANNOT PRAY IN LOVE AND LIVE IN HATE AND STILL THINK WE ARE WORSHIPING GOD."

A.W. TOZER
Reply With Quote
  #2738  
Old 09-05-2017, 03:12 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
I will not curtsy to anyone I don't feel deserves it and to me being born or marrying someone does not mean you deserve it.
But the idea that us being American negates us from standing against archaic, insulting beliefs like the ones duc et par always expresses regarding "commoners" and then marrying royalty does not sit well with me. It is this idea and "custom" that spurs on those who look down on the Middleton's as upstarts who don't know their place.
For the good order, it has nothing to do with being royalborn or not. I would not bow by head to Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón and if I was a lady I would not go through my knees for Philip of Greece and Denmark. I would respectfully offer my hand to them in a nice and well-meant handshake. The ones who blame me for making a difference between royals and commoners I would like to look to the top of this page and see the second word of the title: The Royal Forums.

This means we are discussing royals. And when we discuss royals we make a difference in royals and non-royals, like you and me. Sometimes things are pretty simple, it is as it is. Elizabeth II von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, known as "Windsor", is a royal. Miss Meghan Markle is a commoner. Sometimes things are what they are.

The ones blaming me for archaïc because I point to that difference are in no position to do so, when on their own turn they are willing, as self-conscious, well-educated and assured citizens to go through the knees for a Kate, mumbling in utter adoration "Your Royal Highness" showing servitude and obedience. And then having the guts to blame another poster for being archaïc?

For the good order: if we are denying any difference between royals and commoners because of the political-correctness-brigade here, am I allowed to open a thread to discuss Emmanuel Macron and his spouse Brigitte? No royals, but that is a dirty word here, apparently.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2739  
Old 09-16-2017, 06:58 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Posts: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
In England morganatic marriage isn't recognised. Under common law a person who marries into the royal family is just as 'royal' as blood royals.

Catherine for example is both a princess and a peeress. So if The Duke of Cambridge is deserving of a bow of the head, The Duchess of Cambridge is equally deserving of a curtsey.
The same applies to HRH Prince Harry and who ever he marries
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2740  
Old 09-16-2017, 11:04 PM
MARG's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 6,935
This is a thread about royal protocol, specifically bowing and curtseying. How is it that we are arguing as to whether particular Princes, Princesses, or Queens are deserving of said practice by virtue of their birth?
__________________

__________________
MARG
"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
birthday british royal history carl gustaf chris o'neill crown princess mary crown princess victoria crown princess victoria hats current events denmark duchess of brabant duchess of cambridge earl of snowdon family general news grand duke henri hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume infanta cristina infanta leonor infanta sofia iñaki urdangarín jewels king felipe king felipe vi king philippe king willem-alexander letizia liechtenstein lord snowdon love monarchy monarchy versus republic news official visit paris prince alexander prince carl philip prince daniel prince felix prince gabriel prince harry prince harry of wales prince nicholas prince oscar princess beatrice princess claire of luxembourg princess estelle princess leonore princess madeleine princess of asturias princess sofia princess victoria queen elizabeth ii queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen mathilde queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen silvia question soderberg spanish royal family state visit stephanie sweden swedish royal family victoria zog



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:32 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017
Jelsoft Enterprises