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  #2701  
Old 08-01-2017, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
How much ever a fan of curtseying, I do not appreciate a Prime Minister curtseying the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. Curtseying the Queen is a must, and maybe Prince of Wales.. but not anyone further. She is the person who really rules the country in the name of the Queen. So she need not pay homage to the lesser royals.. A polite handshake would suffice. Thatcher would have never done that. Just the Queen and the mister. And if I remember correctly, none of the other male PMs head bobbed to anyone other than the Queen and DoE
I saw that picture too and Kate looked a little surprised by it to me.
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  #2702  
Old 08-01-2017, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
My impression is that Americans in particular tend to exaggerate the meaning of bowing/curtsying, somehow equating it to one person acknowledging his/her inferiority to another. To me, it is just a socially acceptable form of greeting someone who holds a certain rank or title. In other words, in the same way it is appropriate for an active military person to salute another person in uniform, or for a Catholic to kiss the hand of a bishop, it is equally appropriate to bow/curtsy to a king/queen or a prince/princess. In any case, as you said, bowing/curtsying is always voluntary and it is not like you will be thrown in the Tower of London and have your head chopped off if you don't do it !
This reminds me of those Jane Austen's book tv adaptations where ladies and gentlemen do greet each other by curtsying and bowing, no matter their status. Of course with royalty ranking is involved and they do not respond to the greeting by bowing/curtsying in return...but nowadays it is perceived as a submission to another person. If it is an act of submission..I would say it is more to the institution/role/authority they represent, rather than the person per se.
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  #2703  
Old 08-01-2017, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
How much ever a fan of curtseying, I do not appreciate a Prime Minister curtseying the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. Curtseying the Queen is a must, and maybe Prince of Wales.. but not anyone further. She is the person who really rules the country in the name of the Queen. So she need not pay homage to the lesser royals.. A polite handshake would suffice. Thatcher would have never done that. Just the Queen and the mister. And if I remember correctly, none of the other male PMs head bobbed to anyone other than the Queen and DoE


This is a little... I can't find the right word, but I feel like it's a bit bit picky and derogatory - both towards May and the Cambridges.

William is the second in line to the throne. He's not some "lesser" royal. In some ways he is less than the Queen's younger children, but in other ways he is more than them.

For the Prime Minister to curtesy to a man and woman who are her future King and Queen is not inappropriate, not if the PM does not feel so. May is at times a bit off in her following of protocol - she seems to be more for the display, even when it's unnecessary - but it seems silly to critique her for curtsying to the Cambridges.
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  #2704  
Old 08-01-2017, 07:21 PM
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i also do not find it necessary for mrs. may to curtsy to william and kate. she is the PM after all, and although she owes respect to the queen (and, okay, to the heir, charles) i doubt she is required to curtsy to anyone else. the sooner we know, she will be curtsying to george and that is just not right.

i found this picture explaining who kate needs to curtsy to when she is alone, and who curtsies kate always. in the picture, it says the sophie, zara and harrys wife must curtsy to kate always. WHAT?! i have never seen sophie or zara curtsying to kate. wonder if the chart is incorrect?

http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/up...urtseykate.jpg
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  #2705  
Old 08-01-2017, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
I think referring to a custom that does not apply to your country as "archaic and foolish" is both rude and arrogant. Just like paying compliments to a senior officer in the military does not mean he or she is better than me. I would be saluting the Queen's Commission not the person holding the rank. Nobody is going to make you bow or curtsey and in this century it is mostly up to the individual as to whether they do or don't. Personally, I do and have.

As to creaking bones, most royals would be the last people to expect let alone insist that one bow or curtsey should you either be unable or unwilling to do so. However, I find the necessity to denigrate other countries traditions because they clash with yours, narrow-minded and insulting. Can they not be quaint and interesting and just make you happy they are not your customs?
No, it indicates that doing such makes the person to whom you are bowing or curtseying superior than you. It is a tradition that needs to be lost. There are lots of customs in many nations that lauded one person over another, it should have gone like hoop skirts.
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  #2706  
Old 08-01-2017, 07:40 PM
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All of you democracy, equality determined types have to understand that it is NOT demanded of anyone. It is personal choice.

And who are we to decide that someone shouldnt do what they wish, whixh doesnt hurt any individual?
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  #2707  
Old 08-01-2017, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
All of you democracy, equality determined types have to understand that it is NOT demanded of anyone. It is personal choice.

And who are we to decide that someone shouldnt do what they wish, whixh doesnt hurt any individual?
I agree, I don't think US residents/citizens have any right to criticize a custom that is a mark of respect, especially since it is not required.

It is really no different than a soldier saluting an officer, other than that IS required. You are saluting the rank, not the man/woman.
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  #2708  
Old 08-01-2017, 08:58 PM
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IMO a salute is a sign of respect from one soldier to another, soldiers are people who have actually accomplished something more than just being born. If Americans don't have a right to their opinion then I guess this should just be a EU board or an EU only thread.
I will say I will not state that curtseying is stupid and will try to refrain from criticizing the custom in a condescending way.
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  #2709  
Old 08-01-2017, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
IMO a salute is a sign of respect from one soldier to another, soldiers are people who have actually accomplished something more than just being born. If Americans don't have a right to their opinion then I guess this should just be a EU board or an EU only thread.
I will say I will not state that curtseying is stupid and will try to refrain from criticizing the custom in a condescending way.


What does the EU have to do with this?

Many monarchies are not in Europe - in fact Queen Elizabeth II is the monarch of 15 nations that are not in Europe, let alone in the EU (and one nation that, while being in Europe is in the process of leaving the EU).

If you look at what is being said, some posters (primarily from the US) are attacking the custom of curtsying as being archaic, while other posters (primarily not from the US) are saying that American posters should refrain from criticizing a custom that they don't understand. This attitude is fairly common on these forums - it is common for some American posters to attack and/or criticize customs and practices of monarchies (and even the institution of monarchy itself) simply because they differ greatly from the ideals promoted in American culture.

American cultural values are not wrong, but neither are they superior to non-American values. And while there is much that can be said about the practice of curtsying and bowing, simply dismissing it out of hand as archaic because it goes against American values is hugely disrespectful to the cultures which continue to embrace the custom - particularly as it is not a symbol of subservience to a person, like is often believed by American posters, but rather a symbol of respect to an institution (and an entirely voluntary one at that).
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  #2710  
Old 08-01-2017, 10:21 PM
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Just *Brilliant comment* and so very much agree with you. I can only speak for me, yet if I met a royal I would not mind curtsying at all, it is a matter of respect to the country and the position that the royal holds. I think from my own view point and not just here, but in life in general, lots of Americans need to learn the *customs* of other countries and remember that America is not the only country on this planet. IMO I think we as Americans put ourselves in a little box and do not peak out unless something horrible happens. Sometimes I question if most Americans even know that there are kings, queens and royals outside the history books if they even read those books......

Curtsying is just a form of respect like a handshake or a kiss on both cheeks and it is up the individual if they chose to do it or not.....as long as I do not fall flat on my face, I would love to curtsy to a king or Queen, would even love a picture of it for ole time sake...
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  #2711  
Old 08-02-2017, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota View Post
i found this picture explaining who kate needs to curtsy to when she is alone, and who curtsies kate always. in the picture, it says the sophie, zara and harrys wife must curtsy to kate always. WHAT?! i have never seen sophie or zara curtsying to kate. wonder if the chart is incorrect?

http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/up...urtseykate.jpg
If we lived in 18th century France, when protocol and etiquette were at their highest peak, probably this chart would be correct. Catherine is not a Princess of the Blood which would make her lower in rank to other royal women. But I think that,still in this hypothetical 18th century, Catherine becoming wife of the heir with Charles accession she would outrank the York Princesses and Princess Alexandra.
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  #2712  
Old 08-02-2017, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota View Post
i also do not find it necessary for mrs. may to curtsy to william and kate. she is the PM after all, and although she owes respect to the queen (and, okay, to the heir, charles) i doubt she is required to curtsy to anyone else. the sooner we know, she will be curtsying to george and that is just not right.

i found this picture explaining who kate needs to curtsy to when she is alone, and who curtsies kate always. in the picture, it says the sophie, zara and harrys wife must curtsy to kate always. WHAT?! i have never seen sophie or zara curtsying to kate. wonder if the chart is incorrect?

http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/up...urtseykate.jpg
Members of the royal family don't curtsy to one another. They only curtsy and bow to The Queen.

I blame palace officials for not clearing this up when the media went nuts over reports that Catherine have curtsy to the blood royals when William isn't present.
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  #2713  
Old 08-02-2017, 09:47 AM
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I am an American, and I see nothing wrong with bowing or curtsying as a mark of respect to one's sovereign. I think it's a lovely, old, courtly mark of respect.

I genuflect(as do most other parishioners) when I am in church and the Cardinal or one of his Bishops visit and I approach him. It would not occur to me to do otherwise.

What is the harm?

Of course anyone who doesn't want to is not compelled to do so.
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  #2714  
Old 08-02-2017, 09:54 AM
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What people don't understand that there's no longer a rule that you have to curtsy to The Queen or any other member of the royal family. It's all down to your own personal choice.

It was PM May's personal choice to curtsy to the Cambridge's.
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  #2715  
Old 08-02-2017, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Princess Bobbi View Post
I've been lurking for years and have only asked one or two questions before. I do I have a quick question. I am disabled and not able to curtsy to anyone. If I ever met a Royal, would it ever be appropriate for me, as a woman to bow to royalty and if you have a link showing that, I"d really appreciate it.
Making a révérence (ladies) or a bow (gentlemen) is always optional and is never required. So when you are introduced to a royal, a nice handshake is simply perfect indeed.
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  #2716  
Old 08-02-2017, 10:22 AM
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For myself bows or curtsies to Her Majesty The Queen feels as "natural". Besides the immense history she carries in person, it is also a sign of respect for the high Office of State.

It feels unnatural to see people sinking down their knees for a Máxima Zorreguieta, for a Letizia Ortiz or for a Camilla Shand. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them and each lady is an asset to their respective monarchies. But they are not royalborn, not even from the aristocracy, they have no Office of State and are in fact nothing less than "the spouse of".

Suddenly, because they became "the wife of" and now suddenly it is going down the knees and mumble with servitude: "Your Royal Highness" / "Your Majesty". Then -for me- we have reached the point that it has become a vaudeville.

The late Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester was no royalborn lady either but born Lady Alice Christabel Montagu Douglas Scott she was so immensely deep connected with the fine web of the who-is-who in Britain and had links to almost all the most esteemed families in the peerages. So the there was an intrinsic "load" to Princess Alice. (The same applied to the other Princess Alice, and to the Queen Mother, and to Diana, Princess of Wales).

Monarchy is not an exact science. It needs to appeal to a certain feeling, historical awareness and a sort of national instinct. Never it would occur to me to bow down for a Kate, a Máxima or Mette-Marit. I would never hesistate to bow for the Princess Royal or for a Queen Sofía.
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  #2717  
Old 08-02-2017, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post

i found this picture explaining who kate needs to curtsy to when she is alone, and who curtsies kate always. in the picture, it says the sophie, zara and harrys wife must curtsy to kate always. WHAT?! i have never seen sophie or zara curtsying to kate. wonder if the chart is incorrect?

http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/up...urtseykate.jpg

The chart may have confused curtseying with the British order of precedence amongst women.

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Precedence Amongst Ladies in England and Wales

The Table of Precedence, arranged according to rank and status, can be used to dictate the order in which people arrive and depart at official functions, are announced, seating plans (both official and social) and list of signatories to a document.


THE QUEEN
The Sovereign’s Daughter
The Sovereign’s Granddaughters
The Sovereign’s Cousin
The Wife of the Heir Apparent
Wives of the Younger Sons of the Sovereign
Wives of Dukes of the Blood Royal
Wives of Princes of the Blood Royal
Duchesses of England
Duchesses of Scotland
Duchesses of Great Britain
Duchesses of Ireland
Duchesses of UK and Ireland since the Union
Wives of Eldest Sons of Dukes of the Blood Royal
Marchionesses of England
Marchionesses of Scotland
Marchionesses of Great Britain
Marchionesses of Ireland
Marchionesses of UK and Ireland since the Union
Wives of Eldest Sons of Dukes
Daughters of Dukes
Countesses of England
Countesses of Scotland
Countesses of Great Britain
Countesses of Ireland
Countesses of UK and Ireland since the Union
Wives of Younger Sons of Dukes of the Blood Royal
Wives of Eldest Sons of Marquesses
Daughters of Marquesses
Wives of Younger Sons of Dukes
Viscountesses of England
Viscountesses of Scotland
Viscountesses of Great Britain
Viscountesses of Ireland
Viscountesses of UK and Ireland since the Union
Wives of Eldest Sons of Earls
Daughters of Earls
Wives of Younger Sons of Marquesses
Baronesses of England
Ladies of Parliament, Scotland
Baronesses of Great Britain
Baronesses of Ireland
Baronesses of UK and Ireland since the Union, including Life
Baronesses and Wives of Life Barons
Wives of the Eldest Sons of Viscounts
Daughters of Viscounts
Wives of Younger Sons of Earls
Wives of the Eldest Sons of Barons
Daughters of Barons
Ladies of the Garter
Wives of Knights of the Garter
Privy Counsellors (Women)
Wives of Younger Sons of Viscounts
Wives of Younger Sons of Barons
Wives of Sons of Life Peers
[…]
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  #2718  
Old 08-02-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
What does the EU have to do with this?

Many monarchies are not in Europe - in fact Queen Elizabeth II is the monarch of 15 nations that are not in Europe, let alone in the EU (and one nation that, while being in Europe is in the process of leaving the EU).

If you look at what is being said, some posters (primarily from the US) are attacking the custom of curtsying as being archaic, while other posters (primarily not from the US) are saying that American posters should refrain from criticizing a custom that they don't understand. This attitude is fairly common on these forums - it is common for some American posters to attack and/or criticize customs and practices of monarchies (and even the institution of monarchy itself) simply because they differ greatly from the ideals promoted in American culture.

American cultural values are not wrong, but neither are they superior to non-American values. And while there is much that can be said about the practice of curtsying and bowing, simply dismissing it out of hand as archaic because it goes against American values is hugely disrespectful to the cultures which continue to embrace the custom - particularly as it is not a symbol of subservience to a person, like is often believed by American posters, but rather a symbol of respect to an institution (and an entirely voluntary one at that).
I am an American and I got attacked awhile back for being supportive of curtsying to the royal family, so there is no winning this argument.
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  #2719  
Old 08-02-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
I am American but I would gladly curtsy to any of the working royal family members because I am such an admirer of them and of their commitment to service. However, it hurts my knees so I am afraid they would have to pick me up off the floor afterward.
Of course you are completely free to go down your knees and mumble in utter adoration, with servitude and obedience "Your Royal Highness" to Meghan Markle. No one will stop you to do so. For myself I think that this will be the summum of the theatre play called How-Busy-We-Are-With-The-Who-Is-Fooling-Who-Here ?
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  #2720  
Old 08-02-2017, 12:52 PM
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It all seems a simple case of each country - north, east, south and west of world - will have it's own customs and within each country individuals will have their own customs too. It's what makes the world go round.
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