Bowing and Curtseying

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

Expanding on Cordonez's question regarding Prince Philip:

Assuming for argument that bowing/curtseying was not a voluntary choice - and recognizing that HRH The Duke of Edinburgh was born royal and Daniel Westling was born a commoner - if Victoria and Daniel married and she became queen, under these conditions of protocal how would he be treated? Would The Dukes of Brabant, The Princes of Asturias, The Princes of Orange, The Princes of Wales, Haakon & MM, Fred & Mary, et.al. bow and curtsey to him? Aside from the obvious style/graciousness/likeability differences, would there be any difference in how Daniel would be treated vs. Mary, Maxima, Mette-Marit, Letizia, Camilla, etc.?

Also in previous posts it was mentioned that The Duke of Edinburgh told an elderly woman that it was not necessary to curtsey (presumably because of her advanced age). Would it be acceptable for Daniel (or any other non-royal marrying into a royal family) to have staff instruct people not to curtsey to them (even if they wanted to) because it made the new royal uncomfortable? Would we want them to make such a protocol statement?

Assuming most of us are non-royal - if you found yourself in the position of marrying into a royal family, would you be comfortable with/want other people to bow/curtsey to you?

Mapper

[Oppie]

I don't know what the 'set-in-stone' rules are for this so this is just going on my understanding

Assuming for argument that bowing/curtseying was not a voluntary choice - and recognizing that HRH The Duke of Edinburgh was born royal and Daniel Westling was born a commoner - if Victoria and Daniel married and she became queen, under these conditions of protocal how would he be treated? Would The Dukes of Brabant, The Princes of Asturias, The Princes of Orange, The Princes of Wales, Haakon & MM, Fred & Mary, et.al. bow and curtsey to him? Aside from the obvious style/graciousness/likeability differences, would there be any difference in how Daniel would be treated vs. Mary, Maxima, Mette-Marit, Letizia, Camilla, etc.?

1) Philip and Daniel - no there wouldn't be a difference as they would both be considered spouses of a Queen and anyone except other King/Queen and there spouses would bow/curtsey.

2) There doesn't seem to be a difference, between heirs and spouses. I don't knwo about back in the day but the heirs don't really seem to curtsey to each other niether do there siblings (ie Infanta Cristina, Prince Joachim ect) The general rule seems to be that HRH, HSH don't bow to each other. Daniel like for example Letizia would be expected to bow to someone like King Harald or Prince Henrik. For the public if you were going to curtsey to Victoria it would be expected you would do the same for Daniel

3) There are exceptions British royals sometimes curtsey to each other depending (ie to the Prince/Princess of Wales) but that seems to have fallen our of practice. And then there is Mette-Marit who seems to have her own rules (but I love her)

Also in previous posts it was mentioned that The Duke of Edinburgh told an elderly woman that it was not necessary to curtsey (presumably because of her advanced age). Would it be acceptable for Daniel (or any other non-royal marrying into a royal family) to have staff instruct people not to curtsey to them (even if they wanted to) because it made the new royal uncomfortable? Would we want them to make such a protocol statement?

I think it should be left up to the person in public. If they want to curtsey they should be allowed to. But apparently Prince William doesn't want people to curtsey.

Assuming most of us are non-royal - if you found yourself in the position of marrying into a royal family, would you be comfortable with/want other people to bow/curtsey to you?

I wouldn't want people to feel obligated but if someone wanted to I wouldn't stop them because I felt uncomfortable. I think for some people it isn't about that specfic royal but about what they repersent.

[Rebafan81]

As an american I would be honored to curtsey to any royalty. To me it is the same as saying Thank you, or yes, maam to someone you respect. To me it isn't demeaning at all, it is just a way to show respect for someone who is in a position of honor. I guess I was always taught to treat everyone with respect and this is how I interupt the act of curtsey/bowing.
I agree MM has the best curtsey of all the Princesses.

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

Thanks for the response, Oppie. BTW I love MM, too. She along w/ Maxima, Mathilde, and Letizia seem to bring what I call a common elegance to the role. They are generally impeccable in manners and style while still being approachable and without all the haughty airs that some people might take on when marrying into royalty (read Mary and Marie Chantal - although IMO Marie Chantal was probably even more of a princess before marriage).

Mapper

[Duchess]

Originally Posted by Rebafan81

As an american I would be honored to curtsey to any royalty. To me it is the same as saying Thank you, or yes, maam to someone you respect. To me it isn't demeaning at all, it is just a way to show respect for someone who is in a position of honor. I guess I was always taught to treat everyone with respect and this is how I interupt the act of curtsey/bowing.
I agree MM has the best curtsey of all the Princesses.

what a nice post Rebafan81. i feel the same way.

[kimebear]

Does anyone have a photo of a prince bowing to a king? We have seen M-F, F-F and F-M but no M-M. Do they just bow or shake hands and bob their heads???

[Chanter]

How does one handle all the Sheikh’s & Sheikha's? Not at all meaning to be rude, though it seems that 'everyone & their cousin' is a Sheikh. With knowledge of their households simply not as public of record as say European royalty is, it just seems to difficult to know much of anything, including rank amongst themselves, & where they would compare to rank of European royals.

I see that ruler of Dubai is (now) HRH. When did his family actually take on the title of royalty?

What would be the etiquette with Queen Noor & Queen Rania meeting? Then either of them meeting Queen Elizabeth? Not merely just age, that Queen Elizabeth is older, but is not a Rania actually a commoner married into royalty? Any other explainatory examples for me of how such would work, especially with the middle easterners?

Before Princess Haya married Sheikh Mohammed, what would that protocol have been? I ask for theirs is a very male dominated society. Which outranked the other, especially before he became the ruler of Dubai. Once he became ruler? Now that they are married?

Then with the Saudi’s having King’s et al, plus Sheikh’s, how does this all work out with ‘mere’ Sheikh’s of other nations? Do they even bow & curtsey, or do they have another form of customary mannerisms?

I gather a Sultan is equal to a king. Though where does an Emir stand amidst royal rankings? So would an Emir bow to a Sultan or a Sheikh? Or is an Emir above a Sheikh, except of course in the case of HRH Sheikh Mohammed of Dubai, as he is the ruler of his nation? And where does Sheikh Mohammed’s brother Sheikh Hamdan fit in all of this as to rank & protocol? Are all Emir’s rulers?

I am thinking in terms of does HRH Sheikh Mohammed of Dubai outrank Prince Phillip, thus Phillip would bow to this Sheikh? Though would Sheikh Hamden & Prince Phillip be equals, or Hamdan of lesser rank thus the one to do the bowing? Then what of HRH Sheikh Mohammed’s prince sons, which bows to the other say again in using the examples of Prince Phillip, Prince Charles, & Prince Andrew?

HRH Princess Haya, the wife of the ruler of Dubai now in her married position would not curtsey to Prince Phillip? Though would she have before her marriage, as he is married to Queen Elizabeth thus at that time outranking her because of the status of his wife?

Moderators, edit, move or delete this long winded post as you so choose to. I am merely trying to learn.

PS: Where do I find all the meanings for the abbreviations of HRH, HSH, HIH, etcetera? *thanks*

[Oppie]

I'm not that familar with Middle Eastern Royalty so I can't answer most of your question. If Queen Rania met Queen Elizabeth they would be no curtsey although Queen Rania is a consort Queens and Kings (and Princes Consorts) do not curtsey/bow to each other.

HM- His/Her Majesty used for Kings and Queens (HM Queen Elizabeth, HM King Harald, HM Queen Sofia)

HRH-Her/His Royal Highness used for Prince/Princess of Great Britian, Spain, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, the Netherlands and for the Luxembourg Royal Family (HRH Prince William, HRH Infanta Cristina HRH Grand Duke Henri)

HH-His/Her Highness used in some royal families for 'minor' royals (HH Prince Felix)

HIH- His/Her Imperial Highness used for the Japanese Royal Family (HIH Princess Aikio)

HSH- His/Her Serene Highness used for the Royal Families of Monaco and Liechtenstein (HSH Prince Albert)

HIM- His/Her Imperial Majesty used for an Emperor (HIM Emperor Akihito)

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by suturegeisha

Heads of state don't bow to anyone....i.e., presidents don't bow to kings, and queens don't curtsy to first ladies, etc. :)
Lollies!
-Kara-

They do. Monsieur Jacques Chirac (President of France) and Madame Bernadette Chirac - Chodron de Courcel are always very gallant. He uses to make a bow and she a révérence.

[Sister Morphine]

Originally Posted by Henri M.

They do. Monsieur Jacques Chirac (President of France) and Madame Bernadette Chirac - Chodron de Courcel are always very gallant. He uses to make a bow and she a révérence.

Yeah, but that's them. I've never seen George and Laura Bush do that.

[Chanter]

Oppie, thank you for the definitions. The I, as in Imperial, was really stumping me. *blushing over my ignorance*

Anyone else able to add anything, even a few things? *smile*

Thanks in advance!

[Next Star]

If I were to meet a royal in the future I would not bow or curstey but I would shake there hand. I do not like the bowing or curstying it is not pleasing to me . You can show respect without doing those things.

[Lady Jennifer]

If I'm not mistaken American Presidents never bow to Royals. I think the same could be said for other heads of states- not all, but some.

[...JuAnItA...]

Originally Posted by Lady Jennifer

If I'm not mistaken American Presidents never bow to Royals. I think the same could be said for other heads of states- not all, but some.

I think Presindents have the same status of Kings. A President won't bow any Royal but the First Lady (or First Gentleman) i think have to bow.
I read something about this some weeks ago, but i'm not totally sure. Anyway i hope this helps.

[Princess_Nessy]

I have a question - do CP Mary's parents have to bow to her? I mean, they're her parents! But now that she is a CP - do her commoner parents have to bow to her while in public? Just wondering...

[kimebear]

Originally Posted by Princess_Nessy

I have a question - do CP Mary's parents have to bow to her? I mean, they're her parents! But now that she is a CP - do her commoner parents have to bow to her while in public? Just wondering...

Bowing is a courtesy. No one has to bow to royalty. What's more, her parent's monarch is QEII as Australians. They are not Danish. I know they have bowed/curtsied for QMII out of respect, but they are not required to bow to their daughter.

[Madame Royale]

The Crown Princess' family do not curtsy or bow to either herself or Frederik and neither do their Danish & Australian friends.

The fact that Margrethe is not John or Susan's sovereign (Mary's mother died in 1997 from heart related complications), does in no way prohibit them from bowing or curtsying to the Queen of Denmark. And whilst bowing and curtsying is a courtesy it is still very much practiced in Denmark, although it is left to the indaviduals discretion

[Princess_Nessy]

Thank you Madame and Kimbear! I think I would still courtsy if I met one of them. When I met Princess Diana I did a half courtsy/half shaky leg thing... terrible!