Gay Royalty

[Smilla]

Originally Posted by Margrethe II

Ancient Greece, thats the one. Dont know why I said Romans before Greeks. My bad?

Move onto women? yeah right.lol. Never! I dont recall ever hearing how they were "supposed" to move onto women. One makes it sound like moving from an entrée to the main.

"MII"

Sorry. Must be my English! But it could work as a metaphor: I suppose the boys were regarded like an entree to Real Life - as entrees are so often, delicious, luxurious, and beautiful to look up. And then you had to get married to a women to have some kids and create the next generation of Polis citizens - which you could compare to, let's say, sheperd's pie - nourishing, yes, substantial, yes, but awfully boring, especially if compared to those delicious entrees. Hmmmm - and what's for dessert? :-)

[Margrethe II]

Originally Posted by Smilla

Sorry. Must be my English! But it could work as a metaphor: I suppose the boys were regarded like an entree to Real Life - as entrees are so often, delicious, luxurious, and beautiful to look up. And then you had to get married to a women to have some kids and create the next generation of Polis citizens - which you could compare to, let's say, sheperd's pie - nourishing, yes, substantial, yes, but awfully boring, especially if compared to those delicious entrees. Hmmmm - and what's for dessert? :-)

Thats quite alright Smilla Dont feel you need to apologise, your english is just fine.

You converted that into a wonderful metaphor!! Wonderfully expressed.

Kind regards,

"MII"

[Margrethe II]

Oh and was it not said that Her Excellency the Duchess of Windsor (whom I have happend to grow very fond of in memory) had a relationship with a gay man whilst being married to HRH the Duke of Windsor? And apparently the Duke was aware of his wifes straying eye for something a little more exotic.

"MII"

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Margrethe II

Oh and was it not said that Her Excellency the Duchess of Windsor (whom I have happend to grow very fond of in memory) had a relationship with a gay man whilst being married to HRH the Duke of Windsor? And apparently the Duke was aware of his wifes straying eye for something a little more exotic.

"MII"

Her Grace the Duchess of Windsor was very good friends with Jimmy Donohue, an heir to the Woolworth five and dime fortune, who was openly homosexual. She never slept with him, but he was someone she enjoyed socially along with the Duke.

[BeatrixFan]

Oh and was it not said that Her Excellency the Duchess of Windsor (whom I have happend to grow very fond of in memory) had a relationship with a gay man whilst being married to HRH the Duke of Windsor? And apparently the Duke was aware of his wifes straying eye for something a little more exotic.

Wallis was indeed courting a young man known for his tastes in rich men. The feeling was that he was only interested in Wallis to get to David (Edward VIII).

*By the way, Wallis was only her Excellency during her time in the Bahamas but actually, she was HRH - morganatic marriage and all that.

[Margrethe II]

Oh my mistake. Her Grace indeed From material I read she was infact sleeping with him and I shall do my very best to get my hands on it.

Thanks for the clarification...

"MII"

[BeatrixFan]

Hee Hee - I'll let you off . As I said, Brits can't marry morganatically so just as Camilla will automatically become Queen upon Charles's accession, Wallis became HRH when she married him.

Anywho, WARNING - SLIGHTLY GRAPHIC BELOW

Can anyone remember the boys name she was with. Was it Jimmy someone? A friend of Wallis's said that Jimmy and Wallis never had penetrative sex they only indulged in foreplay. She believed that it was David he wanted.

[susan alicia]

think frederik the great of prussia and ludwig of bavaria too.
Went with a group of arthistorians to Neuschwanstein and was walking next to one male arthistorian with visibly plucked eyebrows and a long cape and a certain way about him. We passed two bavarian young men in lederhosen who looked visibly disgusted at him and I thought they probably do not know about ludwig

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

Amongst those Royals listed as being gay are Julius Caesar, Edward II, Louis XIII of France, Queen Mary II, Richard the Lionheart, Umberto II of Italy and Lord Frederick Windsor who apparently has now come out and indeed, on his Wikipedia Entry is posing on the front of a gay mag in a very very camp manner indeed. Interestingly Hans Christian Andersen was also gay.

Most of people in your list were actually bisexual. A funny quote on Julius Caesar: 'Caesar is the man of all women and the woman of all men'.

Re: homosexuality in Greece.
The image of universally spread homosexuality and total sexual liberty is an illusion. Sexuality in Greece was very tightly controlled and was very dependant of social rules. For example, during an intercourse between two men the one with the most elevated social position will be 'the man' (don't think I will elaborate), never the contrary. Socrates was criticised for his passion for a stunning young male, as he would be effeminate with him, despite beeing older and more elevated than him. Same with the so-called pedophile tendency of the Greek. Intercourses between a young student and a mature teacher were not in an erotic contex, but in a educational context. That was to teach them, amoung other things, social hierarchy through humiliation. Sex (especially sex between men) was a social statement and in reality, the real number of homosexual men was not more higher than today, and they were not very respected (as they were effeminate).

By the way, Wallis was only her Excellency during her time in the Bahamas but actually, she was HRH - morganatic marriage and all that.

She was never HRH.

[BeatrixFan]

She was never HRH

I understand that - she never was allowed to use the title but surely through the laws on non-morganatic marriage she became HRH when they married whether she used the title or not?

[Warren]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

I understand that - she never was allowed to use the title but surely through the laws on non-morganatic marriage she became HRH when they married whether she used the title or not?

Branchg or Chrissy57 et al can explain it better but I believe King George VI issued Letters Patent which denied the Royal Highness style to Wallis. Under Common Law Wallis was indeed entitled to the HRH, but the Sovereign is the Fount of Honour, and the Sovereign decreed otherwise.

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

I understand that - she never was allowed to use the title but surely through the laws on non-morganatic marriage she became HRH when they married whether she used the title or not?

She was not allowed to use it because she never was. As Warren says, Letters Patent were issued. Actually GVI first striped David from title and style then recreated him RH and prince of the UK, but only him. It was not really legal but he was the King and had the final say when it came to granted titles and styles. Plus he had the gov/parliament approval.

Sources: the RF :)

[BeatrixFan]

Ah I see! I didn't know about the Letters Patent.

Thanks Idriel and Warren :)

[Elspeth]

I also am a firm believer in the gay gene.

So far there doesn't seem to be a gay gene as such; there are several factors including genetic, hormonal, environmental, and bunches of things they haven't come across yet.

[Smilla]

Originally Posted by Idriel

Re: homosexuality in Greece. The image of universally spread homosexuality and total sexual liberty is an illusion. Sexuality in Greece was very tightly controlled and was very dependant of social rules. For example, during an intercourse between two men the one with the most elevated social position will be 'the man' (don't think I will elaborate), never the contrary. Socrates was criticised for his passion for a stunning young male, as he would be effeminate with him, despite beeing older and more elevated than him. Same with the so-called pedophile tendency of the Greek. Intercourses between a young student and a mature teacher were not in an erotic contex, but in a educational context. That was to teach them, amoung other things, social hierarchy through humiliation.

I'm just working on that topic (education in Ancient Greece), but the theory that homosexuality would teach young men "social hierarchy through humiliation" is news to me. Could you tell me your sources, please?
The way most authors here describe it, homosexuality was socially approved if it happened in the mentor/student relationship between a respected citizen and a young man of good family. It was not regarded as a humiliating experience but an initiation in the world of men.

[Princejohnny25]

Sexual liberty in the ancient world was a huge thing. In ancient rome the houses used to have mosaics of genitalia and sex was a very open thing. There really wasnt a line between homosexuality and heterosexuality. Sex was sex but heirachy did have something to do with it. Remember, that there morals were completely different from ours. They were free to do a lot of things. Morals are forever changing.

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by Smilla

I'm just working on that topic (education in Ancient Greece), but the theory that homosexuality would teach young men "social hierarchy through humiliation" is news to me. Could you tell me your sources, please?
The way most authors here describe it, homosexuality was socially approved if it happened in the mentor/student relationship between a respected citizen and a young man of good family. It was not regarded as a humiliating experience but an initiation in the world of men.

I can't quote my source as most of the books I read on the subject are in the library of my boarding high school.
I am sorry about that and of course that is an excellent reason to disregard anything I say in my post.
But in case I just expressed myself badly, I will elaborate (again, here, no sources will be provided :o ).
Sexuality, whether with men or woman, was not sigmatized in ancient Greece like it is in Cristian societies. However, social hierarchy and status were a huge deal for the Greek (and Roman for that mater). Women were considered inferior to men. Assuming a woman role for a man, whether in everyday life or during a sexual intercourse (that what I mean by beeing effeminate), was not respected, and a humiliation. I am pretty sure that during your studies of the Greek educational system you came across texts specifying that the intercourse between a teacher and a student were codified. It was always the teacher who would assume the dominant or "man" role, never the contrary. In that sense it was an sort of social humiliation for the student, IYSWIM. Of course this was accepted and normal, since it would instigate in the young man the values of the society. And of course as you say, there was much more about this ritual, it was a real initiation. But part of it was humiliation. At least that what I read and that makes sense to me.
AFAIK, this what not considered homosexuality. There were strictly homosexual men and they were not well considered in society (because they would behave like women most of the time). I remember reading poems from homosexual men of the time, and from it you can tell there was a real stigma attached to it (again, not because of the sexual but because of the social aspect).
I would rather agree with Prince Johnny who express things perfectly IMO.

Originally Posted by Elspeth

So far there doesn't seem to be a gay gene as such; there are several factors including genetic, hormonal, environmental, and bunches of things they haven't come across yet.

I do agree and I find the dea of a gay gene rather dangerous and reductive.