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  #521  
Old 03-06-2012, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
As you pointed out yourself, there is a considerable difference between an elected political figure, minister or head of state, and a royal head of state...
Definitely, there are lots of problems that a gay monarch would face that are not at all relevant for a foreign minister or even a president. They have been discussed in detail in this thread, and I absolutely agree that, all in all, it would be a problem in many respects.

But as I was so impressed myself by people´s astounding ability to be polite to a foreign minister from another country who, if he were a citizen of their own state, would be executed for his way of living, I just wanted to share this little detail.

Of course, as you say, the statistical probability of a gay heir to any of the world´s thrones is not that small. It is not a choice, and if it should happen to a royal heir, his (or her) position would not be enviable at all. While in former times the "solution" to such a situation would have been clear - marry a suitable partner and "think of England" whatever your true feelings might be - I think nowadays a gay royal heir could not do it right. Whether he/she told the public the truth or not, in any case he/she´d be criticized - either for bringing "shame" to his/her position by admitting to be gay or else for being a hypocrite and a liar. Talk about being damned if you do and damned if you don´t...

On the other hand, like NGalitzine says, someone has to be the first one.
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  #522  
Old 03-06-2012, 04:37 PM
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Absolutely.
The first one will be a genuine trailblazer.

And in a couple of generations it will be acceptable for royals to be homosexuals as well.
There is a tendency for the royals, and not least for the public view on royals, to be a generation or two behind the way public in general live their lives.

Things change. A generation ago a divorce among top royals was unthinkable.
Two generations ago a monarch marrying a divorced (read: a used) woman, was utterly unacceptable.
What is happening now?

It's not so much the royals, that's the problem. It's us. Myself included as I pointed out below.

Royals are special and they have to be seen as being special. I think if the family values were tightned up again, the royals would become even more conservative in their values.

Ironic, isn't it? Considering that royals just 200 years ago were known, and infamous for breaking almost every contemporary moral value themselves.

ADDED: In politics there are all kinds of bedfellows. It's widely accepted that you overlook a politicians race, gender, religion and nowadays sexual orientation. If you can roll out the carpet and welcome a foaming mad dictator a gay politician is hardly a problem.
But a king with his prince consort? His "queen"? Why, it's almost like welcoming Caligula! (Yes, that was satirical and Caligula by the way may have been the victim of a very successful character assassination).
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  #523  
Old 03-07-2012, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Ironic, isn't it? Considering that royals just 200 years ago were known, and infamous for breaking almost every contemporary moral value themselves.
Yes, it is indeed ironic, but if you come to think about it, it´s basically a question of power. As long as kings had political power, they could afford to do whatever they wanted. For example, as far as I know, people were very sorry and angered that Henry VIII would divorce Catherine of Aragon. But King Henry did not need to be popular, he just did what he wanted even when people would strongly pity his first wife and his daughter. Nowadays if royals do something „wrong“, there will soon start talks about abolishing the monarchy. At the time of Henry VIII, that was not even an option.

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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
ADDED: In politics there are all kinds of bedfellows. It's widely accepted that you overlook a politicians race, gender, religion and nowadays sexual orientation. If you can roll out the carpet and welcome a foaming mad dictator a gay politician is hardly a problem.
But a king with his prince consort? His "queen"? Why, it's almost like welcoming Caligula! (Yes, that was satirical and Caligula by the way may have been the victim of a very successful character assassination).
I do not think that there is such a big difference between royals and politicians. Remember Clinton, for example. ("I never had sex with that woman." ) Besides, I would not bet on it that there will be a gay US president before we see a gay monarch ascending a throne. I´d suppose that it is more a question if it is „our“ royal/politician or a foreign one. If, say, Felipe of Spain were gay, I am sure he would have a harder time with his family and with his country than abroad. Concerning foreign heads of state, people are usually not spoiled. As you say: „If you can roll out the carpet and welcome a foaming mad dictator a gay politician is hardly a problem.“ But it is not the same story if the guy - whether royal or politician - is from your own country. Then you´ll take him personal, so to speak.

Of course you are right that “it is us”. But personally I must say, I would not mind a gay royal at all, whether monarch or “second row” royal. That does not mean that I am not expecting royals to be special. I do. It is just that homosexuality would not go against my standards. I expect royals 1) to be authentic and 2) to be aware of their responsibility as role models (which includes that they should know that their own desires and moods are not always the most important thing in the whole wide world). (Incidentally, 2) is the reason why I am not a huge fan of the late Princess of Wales.)

As a positive example I would take the way in which the Swedish royal family dealt with Victoria´s eating disorder. I liked the openness, the frankness with which Queen Silvia admitted that she felt guilty (although I doubt that anybody blamed her). On the occasion, the royal family did not pretend to be perfect. They admitted that they were shocked themselves to find out that something had obviously gone wrong so badly. They showed people how to deal with it when something goes wrong: don´t deny it, face it, think about it, do something about it. (For them, de-nile (denial) was really just a river in Egypt. )

If a gay royal would set a similar example and show people how to deal with such a situation (that I think we all agree would be VERY difficult), how to be true to yourself and act responsibly, I would greatly admire his/her courage.
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  #524  
Old 03-07-2012, 11:53 AM
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One of the princes in the series "undercover princes" is gay and went to the UK to look for a partner.
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  #525  
Old 03-07-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandduchess24 View Post
One of the princes in the series "undercover princes" is gay and went to the UK to look for a partner.
Who is he?

Yeah, ChiaraC,

It's so much easier to be supportive when it's another country.
For me, I guess it can be compared to if my own son turns out to be gay. A part of me will go: "Phew, nothing more serious", another part of me will have to take sooome time getting used to the fact, and don't expect me to clap in my hands with delight the first ten times I see him and his partner kiss. - But it'll pass. It will work out.

It would be the same thing with a gay monarch of my own country. It will take some getting used to, but that'll pass. There is no way it would change my view on the monarchy. After all you can't help who you are, and you can't be blamed for what you are. - You can be blamed what you do. But that's another story.

I also believe a lesbian monarch/heir would get a much easier break. Pretty unfair, actually.
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  #526  
Old 03-07-2012, 03:01 PM
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Who is he?
crown prince Manvendra Singh Gohil

Here's an article about him: Gareth McLean meets Prince Manvendra Singh Gohil, star of BBC series The Undercover Princes | Life and style | guardian.co.uk
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  #527  
Old 03-07-2012, 04:32 PM
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Thanks, Elladora

A fascinating person and an even more fascinating life. - And very lonely life, is my impression.

Did he ever find someone?
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  #528  
Old 03-07-2012, 06:59 PM
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I'll be honest I have no idea. But seeing he's the crown prince how will that line continue? Also nice for the people who where discussing how things should go if the heir of a country or area is gay. Well we have found a current example
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  #529  
Old 03-08-2012, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by elladora View Post
Wow, that is really one very courageous guy. Even if there are no emotional bonds with his biological family, it must be difficult to be an outcast to the people you come from and still somehow belong to. After all, family is usually an important part of a person´s identity. Whatever he does, he will always remain the son of his parents - who disown him...

And this is simply cute: ""It was breaking news all over India," he says, not entirely without pleasure.“

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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I also believe a lesbian monarch/heir would get a much easier break. Pretty unfair, actually.
Seriously? What makes you think that? As far as I know, there are still stereotypes in circulation about lesbian women being ugly men-hating unfeminine unnatural creatures. I doubt that, all in all, a lesbian monarch/royal would get less hate mail than a gay male royal.
(Not from me or from you, of course, but that is hardly relevant as we would not be the ones sending hate-mail anyway I suppose, to whomever it may be.)
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  #530  
Old 03-08-2012, 04:26 PM
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Possibly because a lot of men quite like the idea of 2 women together and are not repulsed by it. A lot of men have a quite different reaction to 2 men being together. Times and reactions are changing, but in some parts of the world change is very slow.
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  #531  
Old 03-09-2012, 02:25 AM
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I think you pretty much nailed it, NGalitzine.

For whatever strange reason, it's my impression that two women living together, that's no big deal.
And that I think is perhaps a thought that is general among men.

I can't say if women have a different attitude.

ChiaraC: Oh yes, there a lots of stereotypes about lesbians around. Not least about "masculine" lesbians, who often try to be more masculine than men. Just as the sterotyopical extremely loose wristed gay guy. - It's my experience that most actually behave fairly normal.
I would expect that to be the case with a royal and his/her spouse.
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  #532  
Old 06-04-2012, 03:36 PM
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I think the partner would get a title, simply because it would be politically incorrect, not mention a political minefield, not to. What kind of title is debateble...
Some very interesting points. Definitely the debate of the title of the spouse is an interesting one. Only time will tell I guess.
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  #533  
Old 08-15-2012, 03:49 AM
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There was a documentary about the life of Rock Hudson on Dutch tv last night and his secretary said that Grace called him one night to say that Rock was drunk and crying. Rock told him that he was crying because Grace did not approve of his being gay and she was worried that her son was gay. I have never considered it but was surprised his mother would.

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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
It's because he was shy and sweet and boyish, and unmarried. Therefore he had to be gay. All the usual nonsense.

Same with Edward: "A job in the theatre? That proves he's gay!"
Just more stereotyping.
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  #534  
Old 08-15-2012, 05:47 AM
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At the risk of starting an angry debate...

It's overly simplistic to think in terms of a gay/straight binary. Very few people are 100% gay, and very few people are 100% gay. Many men who self identify as gay are quite open about still having attractions to the opposite sex. Stephen Fry, for example, talks in his biography about falling in love with the woman who would go on to marry Rowan Atkinson.

The media is quick to report on marriages that break down when one partner decides to pursue a homosexual lifestyle, but there's no reason to believe that this is an inevitable outcome. I expect that plenty of people who have same sex attractions can stay happily married for their whole lives.

The question of a gay royal (and I come at this from a UK perspective) is an interesting one with no easy answer, and almost all outcomes are likely to be incredibly divisive.

Firstly, I think most people would agree that it's still the prime duty of those directly in line to the throne to produce heirs.

Secondly, monarchist support in this country is polarised by people who see the monarchy as a tie to our traditionalist past and those who see the dressing up and the pomp and ceremony as tremendously camp fun.

Thirdly, our most pro-gay mainstream press is also our most pro-republic, so its hard to guess where they'd stand on the matter.

So I think it could go one of the following ways.

1) Gay King keeps his homosexual desires to himself and either marries and produces an heir, or remains celibate. Keeps everyone happy (apart from maybe themselves, but ultimately a King must do his duty)

2) Gay King is open about his homosexuality but remains celibate. Church of England mostly happy, traditionalist mostly happy, pro-gay lobby explodes in a fit of rage, left wing press has a field day, support for the monarchy dips to around 60% for a while but probably rises back up to its usual level if the King turns out to be any good.

3) Gay King is openly gay and takes a partner, Church of England doesn't support it, parliament takes advantage and moves for disestablishment, everyone rejoices at how progressive they are until they start to work out what to do with the coronation. No abbey, no cathedral, no liturgy means terribly flashy but ultimately empty coronation held at Wembley Stadium, directed by Danny Boyle, followed by everyone wondering 'what's the point anymore?'. Referendums follow, and after that is anyone's guess.
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  #535  
Old 10-15-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by susan alicia View Post
There was a documentary about the life of Rock Hudson on Dutch tv last night and his secretary said that Grace called him one night to say that Rock was drunk and crying. Rock told him that he was crying because Grace did not approve of his being gay and she was worried that her son was gay. I have never considered it but was surprised his mother would.
Many people have considered it, and many gay people I know say that get a gay vibe from Grace's son, as well, so she wasn't alone.
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  #536  
Old 10-16-2012, 12:14 AM
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I suspect that a gay king of the UK would behave much like the present Duke of Bavaria or the King of Cambodia.

The Duke of Bavaria has a partner he brings to events, but they have not married. Succession is not treated any differently than any other monarch who for one reason or another failed to have a child - such as Baudouin of Belgium. It is what it is and it is not a big deal and there are always others in the line of succession.

Cambodia's royal family has emphasized that their unmarried King loves women like sisters, and while he will not produce an heir it not an issue as he has a big family and his brother is set to succeed.

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  #537  
Old 10-16-2012, 02:40 AM
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I'm kinda wondering where you all have been about the attitude of the Church of England.
They are openly tolerant of gays and many leaders of the church are pushing for gay marriage, same as in the Episcopal Church in the USA. The Episcopal Church in the USA has more than one gay bishop at this time, one a male and one a female, and they have adopted a ruling to be able to "bless" gay marriages if a priest desires to do so, by his own conscience. The Church of England might be the last to object to this situation, unless they suddenly realized that it might undermine their support, and then they might get tenuous.
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  #538  
Old 11-19-2012, 08:01 PM
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I adore this thread. I'm pretty much writing a book about this exact topic: Young, bisexual king (of the UK) is in love with a man and all hell breaks loose. And it might not be realistic, but he WILL get a happy ending eventually because it's fiction and I said so! (and fiction should be aspirational, I think)

Also, as for titles - he's King already, I think his consort will eventually be given a title much like the Duke of Edinburgh. Not sure if they'll solve succession, but if not he has a sister and many cousins to be heirs.

I was sort of inspired by the Duke of Kent, because I bloody love him. He was amazing. But interestingly, in creating a modern character similar to him, I've realised that the life he led would be impossible for any current royal. I mean, look at what happened with Harry and those pictures - of what would, I'm sure, have been a quiet Tuesday night for the Duke of Kent. No way could a royal get away with what he did in the modern age, with our press and constant gossip and TMZ... My modern bisexual prince has had to be much, much more careful in his experimentation.
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  #539  
Old 11-19-2012, 08:18 PM
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I'm kinda wondering where you all have been about the attitude of the Church of England.
They are openly tolerant of gays and many leaders of the church are pushing for gay marriage, same as in the Episcopal Church in the USA. The Episcopal Church in the USA has more than one gay bishop at this time, one a male and one a female, and they have adopted a ruling to be able to "bless" gay marriages if a priest desires to do so, by his own conscience. The Church of England might be the last to object to this situation, unless they suddenly realized that it might undermine their support, and then they might get tenuous.
There has been many people in the church who have been vocal in their resistance to gay marriage as opposed to civil partnerships, though. There have been a lot of complaints about being 'forced' to perform ceremonies. Even though the proposals currently wouldn't entitle anyone to be married in a church if the church didn't agree, as far as I can tell. The unions would just actually be classed as marriage and not civil partnerships - which is felt by a lot of people to be a form of 'separate but not equal.'

Anyway, it's not like a king disagreeing with the church about who he should be able to marry is an entirely new situation, is it? Why does the CoE exist in the first place, again?

(though yes, obviously things have changed a lot since Henry VIII's time, I know...)
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  #540  
Old 11-20-2012, 03:09 AM
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With regard to the Church's attitude towards marriage of same-sex couples, for me the question cannot be addressed until I can be sure of the Church's attitude towards straight couple's marrying in civil ceremonies (as opposed to marrying in church) and of straight couples marrying in church but not actually being religious themselves. Is it a "proper" marriage under the eyes of the Church to be married in a church if you're not a practicing Christian and never go to Church again? Is a civil marriage recognised as marriage by the church if you marry in a registry office?
I do hope this is not deemed to be too religious an issue for this thread or forum! It's a sensitive subject for religious folk gay and straight!
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