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  #341  
Old 08-01-2009, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
I'd imagine that if it were to ever happen, that the partner of that particular royal would be accorded the conservative acknowledgement observed by the husband of a Princess by where he does not share her style or titles, thus retaining his actual name in an official capacity; or is possibly granted a life peerage by the sovereign if infact the marriage takes place within the immediate royal family (yet another reason why I believe church and state should be disbanded, but that is my personal opinion).

Though I myself have a Christian faith, I don't believe anyone inherits the throne at god's will. It is the accident of birth or by way of abdication, imo.
See, I suppose it depends on the country and their customs. Personally if Prince Harry turned out to be gay and got a civil partnership I'd like to see his partner get an HRH and be known as Prince X. I doubt it would happen that way in the UK but I could see it happening in the Netherlands or Denmark.
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  #342  
Old 08-01-2009, 10:50 AM
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See, I suppose it depends on the country and their customs. Personally if Prince Harry turned out to be gay and got a civil partnership I'd like to see his partner get an HRH and be known as Prince X. I doubt it would happen that way in the UK but I could see it happening in the Netherlands or Denmark.
Hmm, I doubt it. On the continent however, I think any such union would be treated much the same way as Princess Martha Louise and Ari Behn.

That isn't to say the person(s) in question wouldn't or couldn't be granted a life peerage. I personally believe that would be a reasonable acknowledgement of the union.
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  #343  
Old 08-02-2009, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
See, I suppose it depends on the country and their customs. Personally if Prince Harry turned out to be gay and got a civil partnership I'd like to see his partner get an HRH and be known as Prince X. I doubt it would happen that way in the UK but I could see it happening in the Netherlands or Denmark.
Yeah, unfortunately I don't think that the partner of a royal in the UK would get a title, since it would be considered a "civil partnership" and not a marriage, which is too bad.

Certainly if it was a royal in Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, or Spain the spouse would get a title since it would be an actual marriage, wouldn't they? I just wonder if it would be the same title as their spouse.
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  #344  
Old 08-28-2009, 11:05 AM
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A gay crown prince

I was wondering about this the other day, since The United Kingdom recognizes same sex civil unions (not marriage). Does this include a Crown Prince? If the prince decided to take a male as a partner, would he be allowed to center into a civil union? If so, would there be a King and a Prince Consort? Or would a new title be created?

I know there is a question of an heir, but would the idea of adoption or surrogacy be against the constitution?
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  #345  
Old 08-28-2009, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by esanfor2 View Post
I was wondering about this the other day, since The United Kingdom recognizes same sex civil unions (not marriage). Does this include a Crown Prince? If the prince decided to take a male as a partner, would he be allowed to center into a civil union? If so, would there be a King and a Prince Consort? Or would a new title be created?

I know there is a question of an heir, but would the idea of adoption or surrogacy be against the constitution?
I often wonder about this question and the various issues this might raise. I see no reason why a member of the royal family should not be accorded the right to enter into a Civil Partnership without losing their rights to the throne (though according to the Act of Settlement they wouldn't be allowed to be Catholic - see how odd British Law is?!)
With regard to a title, my preference is for a monarch's spouse to be called Prince/Princess Consort - I am not in favour of a Queen Regnant's husband being called King although oddly I do not mind a King's spouse being called Queen. Therefore, the King's civil partner would be known as the Prince Consort. However, if a Crown Prince were to enter into a Civil Partnership, we do have the awkward issue of there being the Crown Prince and Crown Prince (or in the case of the British Royal Family The Prince and Prince of Wales - or even the Prince of Wales and the Duke of Cornwall.....).
It is more likely that the Civil Partner would not be given a title on the basis that as far as I know it is not customery for one party to be automatically entitled to the other's title.
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  #346  
Old 08-28-2009, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by esanfor2 View Post
I was wondering about this the other day, since The United Kingdom recognizes same sex civil unions (not marriage). Does this include a Crown Prince? If the prince decided to take a male as a partner, would he be allowed to center into a civil union? If so, would there be a King and a Prince Consort? Or would a new title be created?

I know there is a question of an heir, but would the idea of adoption or surrogacy be against the constitution?
The same about the gay Crown Princess?
What about Gay royalty outside Europe?
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  #347  
Old 08-28-2009, 12:06 PM
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Sorry - forgot to reply to the question of adoption or surrogacy! I think the next in line to the throne would be the next available royal family member such as the heir's younger brother or sister. Even if adoption did take place, I am not sure whether a title would be given to the child. I think a title ought to be granted, but Crown Princess Mette Marit's son Marius has not been given a title and I assume it would be the same here - I do not even know if Marius has officially been adopted by Haakon?
As for surrogacy, I simply do not think this would be entertained because it is a very complicated business and the royal family might end up being seen as a story-line from Ugly Betty!
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  #348  
Old 08-28-2009, 12:12 PM
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I think it is so strange that someone like Camilla will be styled HM upon Charles' succession and a gay Crown Prince's (or princess') partner's title is so questioned.

Swedish law permits gay marriage, not just civil union-ship. I guess that means the crown prince could marry his lover, and be entitled to every privilege and right that a heterosexual marriage would have (including title and precedence).

It is a very interesting topic...
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  #349  
Old 08-28-2009, 12:12 PM
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Abot Marius from NRF site:
Master Marius Borg Høiby was born on 13 January 1997 and is the eldest of the children in the Crown Prince and Crown Princess’s family.
I don't hear that he was adopted by Haakon.
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  #350  
Old 08-28-2009, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
Hmm, I doubt it. On the continent however, I think any such union would be treated much the same way as Princess Martha Louise and Ari Behn.

That isn't to say the person(s) in question wouldn't or couldn't be granted a life peerage. I personally believe that would be a reasonable acknowledgement of the union.
There is a long history of 'the favorite' male or female of the King was often granted a (not just lifetime) peerage. For example the Earl of Albemarle (ancestor of Camilla Shand Parker-Bowles in one of life's little ironies) was created such for his 'beaux yeux' by his lover William III.
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  #351  
Old 08-28-2009, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by esanfor2 View Post
Swedish law permits gay marriage, not just civil union-ship. I guess that means the crown prince could marry his lover, and be entitled to every privilege and right that a heterosexual marriage would have (including title and precedence).

It is a very interesting topic...
There's a first time for everything, and if countries like Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands permit gay marriage, then there's no reason that the partner of a gay royal should be treated any differently. I'm just curious as to what kind of title they would have (if it would be the same as their spouses' or not).

Maybe we'll find out one day...
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  #352  
Old 08-29-2009, 05:25 PM
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If one assumes that citizens in Country A and B can be legally married, one would expect a royal in Countries A & B during this or the next generation to come out and choose a partner of the same sex as a spouse.
At the beginning it may be decided that the royal will still be a member of the royal family but resign his/her rights to the throne and in another generation when the unions are more readily accepted, the royals will follow the example of their subjects.
A generation or two ago a commoner, a divorcee,a single mother would not be thought as an ideal potential royal mate and they managed to break these barriers. Give it time. It will happen.
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  #353  
Old 08-29-2009, 07:41 PM
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Social,Legal,Attitudinal Progress vs History,Tradition

Obviously, discrimination (even in "advanced" countries like Sweden) is the biggest factor in this issue. Even some "enlightened" people who support equal rights for LGBT people may have some issues if one or their children or someone in their own family is gay. That is normal for anyone.

Another part of the problem is that the history/concept of royalty is mostly based on heredity, i.e. the expectation is that the heir will marry and produce heirs, regardless of his/her own sexual preferences. History has shown this has been the case even when the ruler/heir is homosexual/lesbian.

As some/most of society has progressed into the modern age of equal rights for women and LGBT citizens, the legal structures (at least in royal circumstances) have only addressed the roles of female heirs and succession.

In countries such as England, which still discriminates based on gender and religion, homosexual and bisexual monarchs have existed in the past which did not include the media scrutiny of today.

Maybe some of the forums members in countries with a monarch could give some feedback on the possibilities of Prince William and his boyfriend or Crown Princess Victoria and her female life partner. Being from the USA, I can't speak with any assuredness or authority, but I would bet everything I have that I will be long dead before our country elects an openly gay president.

Of course, at the end of the day, many of the folks who follow royalty at all love a good scandal!

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  #354  
Old 08-29-2009, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Odette View Post
A generation or two ago a commoner, a divorcee,a single mother would not be thought as an ideal potential royal mate and they managed to break these barriers. Give it time. It will happen.
I think it will too. I think what will probably happen is the first gay royal that gets married to someone of the same sex will be a royal that isn't first in line to the throne. After that, I think that once people get used to that, then they won't be so shocked later on if there were to be a Crown Prince or Princess to get married.
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  #355  
Old 08-29-2009, 10:30 PM
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A civil partnership in the UK is not the same as a marriage. I am therefore fairly certain that in royal or noble circles it would not lead to the partner automatically taking a title based on the royal or noble person's title. However, it would be open to the Monarch to grant that person a title in their own right if she/he felt inclined to.

Legitimacy is totally supreme when it comes to inheriting titles here. In normal life a child is considered legitimate if its parents marry after it is born, even if they weren't when the child was born. However, titles can only pass to a child who was legitimate from birth. (The previous Princess Royal, HRH Princess Mary, Countess of Harewood, was the sister of George V, the present Queen's father. Her grandson, the eventual heir to the title, was a bit 'anti-establishment' when young. He refused to marry his pregnant girlfriend, although they were living together. Their first child was a son. He cannot inherit the Earldom, even though his parents married before the second child was born. So his younger brother is the heir. He is also not in line to the throne, although his other siblings are.)

Also, unlike in Germany, and in Monaco (in the past anyway), an adopted child cannot inherit a title. (The previous Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair had 4 adopted children, but they could not inherit the title, which went eventually to a brother or nephew.)
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  #356  
Old 08-29-2009, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Camilo2002 View Post
Ernst Grand Duke of Hesse (Victoria Melita's husband) was also bisexual as stated by his wife who found him in bed with a servant. Ernst used to be a low profile bisexual and he chose lovers amongst his servants.
What confuses me is that Victoria Melita later claimed that her second husband, Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich, was also found by her to indulge in same-sex affairs (in France.) I have to say I doubt this; she is the only person who claimed this, and only after the couple went through late-life separation. In my opinion, she saw how well the "calumny" worked against her first husband, and found it useful.

Just wanted to also let everyone know that Wikipedia has finally decided to include LGBT royalty as its own category, about the same time that the Wiki editors are engaging new rules about living persons biographies that will prevent the "oh, and by the way Princess JuJu GummyBear of Zrundeezeeburg is gay" toss-offs that appear frequently.

Category:LGBT royalty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #357  
Old 08-29-2009, 10:52 PM
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A civil partnership in the UK is not the same as a marriage.
I know. I thought we were talking about countries that do have actual gay marriage (Sweden, the Netherlands, Spain, Norway). In those countries, a marriage is a marriage no matter who it's to, so they shouldn't be treated any differently.
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  #358  
Old 08-30-2009, 01:57 AM
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All this talk of legal rights and gay marriage and titles is interesting but I'm still waiting for ANY member of a reigning royal family to come out publically as gay. Until a royal who is gay feels able to be out about it then there isn't much hope of a marriage.
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  #359  
Old 08-30-2009, 05:16 AM
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Some country will have a big problem with accept the fact that their throne prince could be gay. Ok, people could say that gay have right to be happy too, but when their own sons appear to be gay, that will a family drama: ,,We want to have normal family, have grandchildren, and now...". Some people could say that it destoy monarchy. Every reason is good for them.

But that's not problem only with royalty. If president of Unites States or British Prime Minister say he's gay will be the same. And people who aren't deligted of their rules (rather big group of people) will be insulting them even more.

Another problem is that press sometimes write about some throne princes that are gay only becouse they aren't married. Like prince Albert or prince Philip of Belgium - with the second: I heard sb write book about his marriage with Mathilde is fiction (horrible!) I wonder what would happen if any prince say: I'm gay. I would like him, no doubt, becouse of his brave.
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  #360  
Old 08-30-2009, 08:57 AM
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I do not believe anyone will come out and scream it from the Palace rooftops......I am Gay. There will be a gradual "coming out" and there will be a gradual acceptance.
In the US we now have at least one prominent member of the congress who is openly gay and keeps getting elected. It (acceptance) will happen with the royals. We could all agree that there may be gay royals at this very day and age who are hiding it because of the reaction of their families or the public.
It is all a matter of how it gets presented and who openly accepts it before the
citizens of a country go along with it.
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