Prince Charles, Count of Flanders (1903-1983)


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I thought the second son gets the title, in this case Philipps brother.
 
I thought this was the rule as well, but apparently it isn't so. I wonder if it's like the title of Count of Hainaut, that is no longer used due to the linguistic issues in the country.
 
Maybe it was bad conscience of the family. I mean Charles was a tragic figure and maybe they realized that, so the title would be never be used again. ??


Count of Hainaut? I didn´t hear of that and looked at wikipedia. It´s quite interesting:

Modern Usage
House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha

In the modern Kingdom of Belgium, the title of "Count of Hainaut" was revived by King Albert I of the Belgians as honorific title to be awarded to the eldest son of the heir to the throne (The Duke of Brabant). The only time it was awarded was to Prince Baudouin (later king Baudouin I), the eldest son of Prince Leopold, Duke of Brabant (later king Leopold III). From 1934 onwards the title of Count of Hainaut has no longer been given to the eldest son of a the heir to the throne, and in 2001 King Albert II decided to no longer award courtesy titles such as Count of Flanders, Count of Hainaut and Prince of Liège.

* Baudouin I (1930 - 1934), son of King Leopold III of the Belgians, also King of the Belgians

(wikipedia)
 
Baudouin is not the only one to have carried the title of Count of Hainaut; the title was carried also by Prince Leopold, the only son of King Leopold II, in 1859-1865.
 
Philippe and Mathilde , before Princess Elisabeth's birth, announced they will give no tittle to her children. As it was a daughter , the belgian Princesses Marie-Josée, Josephine Charlotte, never got tittles.
 
reset of the passwords

During a few days my password was not valid..
Happy now I may log it again without loosing my username and my avatar..
Are they other members having had the same problems ??
 
If Prince Charles were married to a woman accepted by the King, so the marriage was not considered morganatic, wold his children have titles of Royal Princes of Belgium and succession rights?
And, after the Prince's death, would the title of Count of Flanders be inherited by his potential son, as the 2nd Count? Was that title given as hereditary?

An one more question...when Charles was the Regent, he was de facto head of state and he could married anyone he wanted, right? Because, as the head of state, he did not need anyone' assent to marry anyone?
 
kbk said:
If Prince Charles were married to a woman accepted by the King, so the marriage was not considered morganatic, wold his children have titles of Royal Princes of Belgium and succession rights?
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Had he married with the permission of the King, his wifw and children would be Royal Highnesses and Princes(ses) of Belgium, with full succession rights.

And, after the Prince's death, would the title of Count of Flanders be inherited by his potential son, as the 2nd Count? Was that title given as hereditary?
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I'm not sure about this point; just I can tell you that the decree with whom King Albert appinted Charles as Count of Flandres didn't mention the heredity of the title, and when in 1905 the Count of Flandres died, his son (later King Albert I) didn't inherit that title. So I don't think it was an hereditary title.

An one more question...when Charles was the Regent, he was de facto head of state and he could married anyone he wanted, right? Because, as the head of state, he did not need anyone' assent to marry anyone?
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The King doesn't need the consent of anyone for his own marriage; and I guess that this applies also for the regent.
 
Titles are given by birth for the King's children. King Baudouin didn't have children and Albert de Liege's children were nephws without any title.
As Philippe and Mathilde knew that their first child was a girl , girls never receive titles , they said they won't give titles to their children ( now girls may be Queens).

to Mafan
Marie-José wrote in her memories that she was sad to have any tittle she dreamed to be Princess of Congo..
 
maria-olivia said:
Titles are given by birth for the King's children. King Baudouin didn't have children and Albert de Liege's children were nephws without any title.
As Philippe and Mathilde knew that their first child was a girl , girls never receive titles , they said they won't give titles to their children ( now girls may be Queens).
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Wasn't there also some linguistic issues among the reasons gave by the King when he chose not to give the Count(ess) of Hainaut title to Elisabeth?

maria-olivia said:
to Mafan
Marie-José wrote in her memories that she was sad to have any tittle she dreamed to be Princess of Congo..
Click to expand...
Now I remind this detail, I laughed a lot when I read that passage in the book, the little (4-y-o) princess was so upset because her brothers had their own title and she didn't...
One of my favourite readings!
 
ysbel said:
I also wondered if he and Leopold was multilingual in German and French (because of their Bavarian mother) or whether they spoke just French. I imagine that knowing German could have helped them with Flemish.
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My grandfather and his brother, who knew Charles well at the time he was living at Raversijde, told me that he spoke German and Dutch fluently, both with a slight French accent. It was clear from both his French and his Dutch pronunciation that he spoke the Belgian (i.e. Walloon and Flemish) standard varieties of these languages. He was also able to communicate in the local West-Flemish dialect. His brother the king was said to have spoken Dutch less fluently, more slowly, and in a more formal register.
 
Thanks for sharing this story! It`s always nice to hear a personal account.
For a long time I wondered if Karel was able to speak West-Vlaams, esspecially since it is not that easy to master and I had no idea how intense Karel`s everyday contacts with the locals really were. Thanks to your grandfather I´m wiser now!
 
Prince Charles, Count of Flanders died on June 1st,1983 .


Possibly the last ever Belgian royal to use the title Count of Flanders.
 
maria-olivia said:
Yes An Ard Ri ,
The same for Comte de Hainaut !
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And Prince of Liège,such a pity but as I'm not Belgian I don't understand why King Albert II abolished those historical titles.
 
Marengo said:
Mysterious flowers on the grave of an unmarried prince

´A mon cher epoux´ (To my beloved husband) is written on a ribbon that was attached to a flowerarangement that was placed on the grave of Pricne Charles in the Royal Crypt of Laeken. How is that possible, as far as is known Charles was never married.

It was Kucien De Cock, author of two books on burial places and burial rituals who discovered the ribbon sunday afternoon in the Crypt of Laeken. ´I was watching the flowers on the garve of King Baudouin but it was the large flower arrangement on Prince Charels´ tomb that caught my attention. I was completely surprised about the text ´A mon cher epoux´, to my beloved husband? Prince Charles never married, right?

Silent as a grave

Indeed, Prince Charles never officially married. Her wanted to, in the late 30-ties with Jaqueline Wehrli, a daughter of a baker from Brussels but his brother Leopold III forbade the marriage. A prince that married a girl who wasn´t a royal, not even an aristocrat, that was impossible. Charles and Jacqueline got a daughter in 1938. he wanted to adopt her but that wasn´t allowed either. An arranged marriage came from this, Jacqueline married a retired militair and Charles´daughter would be known as Isabelle Wybo.

Charles had a lot of friends, sometimes even several at the same time. There is a story that in his house at Raversijde he received the young Karine Vernooy while in a caravan in his garden a Dancer from Brussels, Renée Damoiseau was waiting for him.

But now there was supposed to be a real marriage. Supposed, as no prove was ever given for it. On September 14th 1977 he might have been married a Jacquenline de Peyrebrune in Paris. He met her during the war in the resistance, he was Monsieur Richard, she Madame Schaak. Charles himself never said a word about the marriage, documents that would prove that a marriage had taken place disappeared and the Belgian court doesn´t say a word about this marriage: ´no comment´.

But who gave the flowers that were placed on the tomb of Charles? In the royal crypt nobody is allowed to say a word about it. Lucien de Cock: ´They have to know because you can not just leave flowers at a grave´.

The flowers
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There is in fact a record, with details of the celebrant and witnesses, of a marriage ceremony between Charles, Count of Flanders and Jacqueline de Peyrebrune which occurred on September 14, 1977 at a Paris church.

When one speaks of proof of the marriage, however, this has different meanings at different levels.

In the first place, both Belgian and French law require that a religious marriage ceremony be preceded by a civil ceremony, which in this case did not occur. Thus, the union between Charles, Count of Flanders and Jacqueline de Peyrebrune was recognized by neither the French nor the Belgian authorities.

Particularly for North American Protestants, another nuanced aspect to the idea of proof for this union may seem somewhat obscure also. Within Roman Catholic theology, a marriage blessing and a marriage sacrament are regarded as distinct (given that Protestants generally regard baptism and communion as the sole sacraments/ordinances, this subtle distinction might be thought to be trite, but it does exist).

Interestingly, Prince Charles, Count of Flanders had wished to marry a commoner in the 1930s, but the Royal Court would not allow it. When therefore Charles's elder brother Leopold III had married commoner Liliane Baels in 1941, this contributed to the increasingly poor relations between the two royal brothers and formed at least part of the background to the Royal Question in the later years of the reign of Leopold III (during part of which Charles served as Regent).
 
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I read your thread with great interest Marcos Fenn, you know a lot about our Royals and unfortunately their bad relationship between them since generations.
We had an Exhibition about Queen Marie José, Count of Flanders Sister, and Prince Laurent invited Prince Charles 's daughter Miss Wibo, I forgot her name.
She is in the seventies and does not like the Press.
We never saw her before!
 
maria-olivia said:
I read your thread with great interest Marcos Fenn, you know a lot about our Royals and unfortunately their bad relationship between them since generations.
We had an Exhibition about Queen Marie José, Count of Flanders Sister, and Prince Laurent invited Prince Charles 's daughter Miss Wibo, I forgot her name.
She is in the seventies and does not like the Press.
We never saw her before!
Click to expand...

Well, you are talking to someone who lived in Belgium, actually.

It can only be said that Queen Elizabeth, Prince Charles's and King Leopold III's mother, and Cardinal Van Roey must have approved of Liliane Baels more than they apparently did of the lady that Prince Charles wished to marry in the late 1930s.

Regarding Prince Laurent (about whom there is another thread), we may be glad that today he was reported as having emerged in good spirits from his coma, surrounded by his praying family.
 
Books and Books are written about that.
Is was said that King Leopold III was depressive (one more) Lilian made him happy and Queen Elisabeth agreed .
It was said that only King Leopold III disagreed his brother's wedding with a commoner, so it was after 1934 or 1935 and Queen Astrid unfortunately passed already away.
In Sweden at that time King's sons married commoners and became Count Bernadotte.
 
maria-olivia said:
Books and Books are written about that.
Is was said that King Leopold III was depressive (one more) Lilian made him happy and Queen Elisabeth agreed .
It was said that only King Leopold III disagreed his brother's wedding with a commoner, so it was after 1934 or 1935 and Queen Astrid unfortunately passed already away.
In Sweden at that time King's sons married commoners and became Count Bernadotte.
Click to expand...

Possibly also Leopold III, after the sympathetic publicity he received in 1935, did not want what he thought would be unsympathetic publicity for the Belgian Royal Family - similar to what Edward VIII over the Channel received in 1936 - when he married Mrs. Simpson.

But it is ironic, in the light of Leopold's own marriage to Liliane Baels in 1941.
 
1941 marks the end of his relationship with the Swedish and Norvegian Royal families.
Lucky his Children and particularly Josephine Charlotte kept warm relationship with them.
 
maria-olivia said:
1941 marks the end of his relationship with the Swedish and Norvegian Royal families.
Lucky his Children and particularly Josephine Charlotte kept warm relationship with them.
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I hardly think that, by marrying Liliane Baels in 1941, Leopold III could be objectively construed as repudiating the memory of Swedish-born Queen Astrid. Subjectively, however, comparisons between Astrid and Liliane would be made and would be a study in contrast.

In a sense, whoever Leopold married, after losing the hugely popular Astrid, would have a challenging public relations task.
 
Guido Bernsdorff said:
My grandfather and his brother, who knew Charles well at the time he was living at Raversijde, told me that he spoke German and Dutch fluently, both with a slight French accent. It was clear from both his French and his Dutch pronunciation that he spoke the Belgian (i.e. Walloon and Flemish) standard varieties of these languages. He was also able to communicate in the local West-Flemish dialect. His brother the king was said to have spoken Dutch less fluently, more slowly, and in a more formal register.
Click to expand...

It's interesting about the West-Vlaams dialect, because it's rather special and distinct. The writer Guido Gezelle was from Roeselaare, and he was deeply identified with West Flanders province. As was Stijn Streuvels.
 
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Very interesting cdm.
In the dutch newspaper you have real insights of the royals. The french newpapers and TV (Place royale) are flatering them.

They told a lot in the newspaper at that time about Mr Allard who was in charge of Prince Charles money.
The Prince lost a lot of money for ever.
Prince Charles spoke dutch as his last mistress was a dutch young Lady, the Prince had Dutch Artists and Painters as personal friends.
 
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Dear MAfan,
Great thanks for your post.
I just bought the book of Jacqueline de Peyrebrune : un amour dans l'ombre- le jardin Secret du Prince Charles de Belgique.
When her husband Mr Schaack died , she married religiously et secretely (not before the law) Prince Charles Count of Flanders on 14/9/1977.
The Prince asked her to write this book 5 years after his dead.
I am waiting her book and will come back on this thread and will know more about the Count's daughter who is still alive.
Both Ladies remained perfectly Secret and Mrs Schaack death was unknown in Belgium.
 
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I read Jacqueline de Peyrebrune's book. Un-interesting , I won't keep it only some pictures..
They are no documents about their religiouis Wedding in Paris and no picture at all from them.
We have to wait for better informations and why not a film about Prince Charles who saved the Monarchy.
 
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