Arveprins Knud & Arveprinsesse Caroline Mathilde

[auntie]

As I said, I think the law would have been changed anyway. They would have had to.

But if not, hypothetically speaking, which MAN is in line after Prince Knud's sons???

 

[UserDane]

So just because you don't agree with me, and that you wish for a feminist shangri-la with only female monarchs, I'm wacko? Well, I'm glad you respect the admins, because you sure don't respect me. And yes, every time a ruling queen has to leave her thrown to her children, a blood line ceases to to sit on the thrown.

Giving equal rights to both sexes is hardly a feminist shangri-la in my book! I don't dispute the rights of first-borns - irrespective of sex - to become regent eventually. It is you who dispute the rights of firstborn females - which IMO is frighteningly old-fashioned and outdated.

 

[Empress]

I would think so is William and Harry. Not 100% sure, but allmost.

Are we sure that Charles carries the titles Prince of Greece and Denmark? I thought that Philip renounced these when he became a Mountbatten, and therefore could not pass them on.

What exactly is an Arveprins?

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

Are we sure that Charles carries the titles Prince of Greece and Denmark? I thought that Philip renounced these when he became a Mountbatten, and therefore could not pass them on.

What exactly is an Arveprins?

An Arveprins is the same as a heir presumptive.

 

[juliana]

So now the bloodlines in Norway, Belgium and Holland and perhaps Spain will cease when the firstborn princess take over from their fathers....???

Genealogically the female x-chromosomes can't be used in the same way as the male y-chromosomes, which are a valuable tool for the verification of an individual's male ancestry because it is passed on exclusively from father to son. Therefore all the queen regnants' sons no longer have the royal ancestry y- chromosomes. The Danish heir's y-chromosomes will only go back to his French ancestry- there will be no connection to the Danish royal male ancestors through that feature. It will affect the future queens too now that the male primogeniture has been replaced. Of course the dna tests will prove ancestry but the traditional male line inheritance now will be lost.

 

[UserDane]

Genealogically the female x-chromosomes can't be used in the same way as the male y-chromosomes, which are a valuable tool for the verification of an individual's male ancestry because it is passed on exclusively from father to son. Therefore all the queen regnants' sons no longer have the royal ancestry y- chromosomes. The Danish heir's y-chromosomes will only go back to his French ancestry- there will be no connection to the Danish royal male ancestors through that feature. It will affect the future queens too now that the male primogeniture has been replaced. Of course the dna tests will prove ancestry but the traditional male line inheritance now will be lost.

Thanks, Juliana, that was interesting.
What then about the verification of an individual's female ancestry? Irrespective of whether the y-chromosomes are traceable, children of both sexes will be their parents' children I suppose and inherit whatever in the eyes of others make them their children.

What I oppose is the seeming exclusion of the importance of the female aspects and rights - and that a female should be considered a lesser choice as regent. I think we have ample evidence that this is not the case. I cannot make myself think that a male is more suited as a successor - even if his chromosomes will be traceable.

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

But if not, hypothetically speaking, which MAN is in line after Prince Knud's sons???

I guess ther is no man in line after Prince Knud´s sons since the did not have anny.

 

[norwegianne]

But if not, hypothetically speaking, which MAN is in line after Prince Knud's sons???

Hypothetically speaking -

From 24 May 1949-27 Mar 1953, the line to the throne looked like this, according to http://members.fortunecity.com/successionlines/denmark.html (I edited out Prince Aage, who shouldn't have been on the list, as he died in 1940):

01. HRH Knud Hereditary Prince of Denmark (Died 1976, would have been king for four years)
02. HH Ingold Prince of Denmark (married a commoner in 1968)
03. HH Christian Prince of Denmark (married a commoner in 1971)
04. HH Gorm Prince of Denmark (Never married, died in 1991, would have been king from 1976 - 1991)
05. HH Axel Prince of Denmark (died in 1964)
06. HH Georg Prince of Denmark (died in 1986)
07. HM Paul King of the Hellenes, Prince of Denmark (Died 1964)
08. HRH Constantine Crown Prince of Greece, Prince of Denmark (From 1991)
09. HRH George Prince of Greece and Denmark (died 1957)
10. HRH Peter Prince of Greece and Denmark (Died 1980)
(11. HRH Philip Prince of Greece and Denmark, Duke of Edinburgh
12. HRH Charles Prince of Greece and Denmark, Prince of Edinburgh (since 6 Feb 1952: Prince of Greece and Denmark, Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay )
11/13 HRH Michael Prince of Greece and Denmark

It's all hypothetical - though - have to put an emphasis on that, as I was misunderstood earlier when I played with hypotheticals.

By the time Gorm died, Constantine and Anne-Marie would have been out of Greece for so many years that they wouldn't necessarily have had a problem with "two thrones"...

It would seem, though, that the Danish royal house, had the succession laws not changed, were kind of shooting themselves in the foot with this "marrying a commoner - lose the rights to the throne thing." On the other hand, Constantine and Anne-Marie does have three sons, and Pavlos has three sons, so maybe nature sorts itself out?

 

[Daneborn]

That was really interesting reading, Norwegianne.

First of all, Christian and Ingolf may not have married commoners without the King's consent had they still been in line and within the possibility of becoming King themselves.

Secondly, I bet Konstantin and Anne-Marie would have turned away from the Greek, accepted the Greek referendum, and embraced the opportunity to become King & Queen in the world's oldest monarchy. At least, I think the Danes would have been able to live with it too as Anne-Marie still is considered as she belongs to the Danish RF.

And all this would leave Queen Margrethe to have her own career as an archeologist, designer, director or whatever she might have desired. Whereas most of the above mentioned don't seem to have any other talent to benefit from through life. Interesting thought.

 

[auntie]

Thanks for all the info! I always thought that Constatine and Anne Marie are good kingly\queenly material!

 

[dlws92]

Thanks for the great analysis, Norwegianne! I always think that "what-if" histories would be interesting. It's facinating to me that if the law hadn't been changed in 1953, that Anne-Marie would be on the throne...but through her husband.

Debby

 

[norwegianne]

That was really interesting reading, Norwegianne.

First of all, Christian and Ingolf may not have married commoners without the King's consent had they still been in line and within the possibility of becoming King themselves.

I agree. Being second and third in line might have changed it - or it might have changed the Danish attitude towards the whole "Counts of Rosenborg" thing.

It's not such a big deal when number four (Ingolf's number in the line in 1968) marries, and loses his rights, and even less when number 6 does it (Christian.), after number 1 (Margrethe has provided two heirs) but it might've been considerably different if Ingolf was second in line to the throne in '68, and did what he'd done.

But then again, love is something that is difficult to factor in.

 

[Fürstin Taxis]

I saw a docu yesterday about the Danish monarchy. And they said, Knut was stupid or the people thought he was stupid. Just like his children.
I find it really sad. Is is true, or did he do some stupid things?

 

[Muhler]

I saw a docu yesterday about the Danish monarchy. And they said, Knut was stupid or the people thought he was stupid. Just like his children.
I find it really sad. Is is true, or did he do some stupid things?

Well, I remember older members of my family telling about this.
He was not stupid but generally considered less suited, intellectually speaking. There certainly wasn't a public outcry when the Parliament decided to do the "politically correct" thing and change the Law of Succession and put that change up for a referendum.
So Princess Margrethe ended up being the heir for the throne and (almost) everybody was happy.
And looking at his son, Count Ingolf, there is a general relief that he is not king of Denmark. Hard words, yes, but that's how it is.

A prominent politician at the time, Jens Otto Kragh, said: "I understand she (Margrethe) is intelligent. A pity". - He believed it was a waste of her intellect to become a monarch. He was wrong.
Anyway, as a Social Democrat, he was in favour of abolishing the monarchy anyway. That is still the official policy of the Social Democrats today, even though few politicians would dream of suggesting that.

The change in the Law of Succession meant that no one lost face, officially. But had Knud been considered more "suitable" it's doubtful whether the change would have taken place. Gender egality in that respect wasn't that big an issue, or the law would have been changed so that the firstborn, regardless of sex, would become heir. It wasn't. So this was just a law used to bypass a problem and everybody knew that.
Knud harboured a considerable bitterness because he was in effect cheated of the crown.

 

[maria-olivia]

Prince Knud's daughter Elisabeth , altough she is absolutely not handsome, is a clever lady speaking a lot of foreign languages.

 

[Fürstin Taxis]

Thanks Muhler and Maria! I felt sorry for him, too. It had been fair if they made him the king and then changed the law, so that Elisabeth would be queen today. But the Danish people didn´t want him

 

[crown]

Yet again I feel compelled to take up a long cold thread but I find this very interesting.

In this thread I have read some interesting interpretations of what the line of succession might have looked like. Most seem miss one important point; when the new law os succession was passed in 1953 it stated: 'The throne is inherited within the descendants of King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine and sons precedes daughters (which has now changed)'
This means that Prince Philip (and his descendants), King Constantine of Greece or King Harald of Norway could never inherit the Danish throne.

What really brought on the new law in '53 is very fascinating. Was solely an act of political correctness and gender equality? Or did the fact that Knud was widely considered to be dim-witted play a part? Maybe one day when the archives are made public we can piece together the true story.

Anonther interesting fact is that Queen Ingrid was allowed to act as regent when Frederik IX was out of the country. She is the only consort in modern times to have this privilege. These days the duty is split between CP Frederik, Prince Joachim and Princess Benedikte. To my knowledge the possibilty of Prince Henrik or indeed CP Mary sharing that duty has never been discussed.

 

[Viv]

What really brought on the new law in '53 is very fascinating. Was solely an act of political correctness and gender equality? Or did the fact that Knud was widely considered to be dim-witted play a part? Maybe one day when the archives are made public we can piece together the true story.

I'm not convinced that Prince Knud was as dim-witted as suspected by some! You don't graduate and get several commands as a naval officer if you're too thick! Maybe he wasn't the brightest of brights, but that's a different story. We may each have our suspicions as to what triggered the change of the succession law; some of the involved are still alive and I for one will not spell this out n a public forum. The veil will be lifted some day but IMO it won't happen till Knud's survivng children and QM Margrethe are long gone.

viv

 

[crown]

I'm not convinced that Prince Knud was as dim-witted as suspected by some!

viv

I don't disagree with you. I heard a story about PK being late for ballet recital (or something similar) and the director of the performing company insisted that the show was repeated for PK - this was what brought on the rumour that PK had to have everything repeated.
I don't think PK was dim-witted at all. In an age where the press got closer the royals I think he was probably a bit akward with the press. Frederik had Ingrid and she instinctively knew how handle the media.
Don't get me wrong - I am not trying to make a martyr of PK and make the DRF devious in any way. I just find whatever prompted the law of succession very facinating. But as you suggest it may take years before the whole truth is known .... if ever.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

If the succession had not replaced Prince Knud with Princess Margrethe and he would have become king, what do you think would have been his regnal name: Knud or Christian?
Knud was his own first name.
Christian was one of his middle names.
Had he succeeded as Christian X, he would have continued the name alternating pattern of Danish monarchs: Frederik/Christian/Frederik/Christian.

 

[JR76]

If the succession had not replaced Prince Knud with Princess Margrethe and he would have become king, what do you think would have been his regnal name: Knud or Christian?
Knud was his own first name.
Christian was one of his middle names.
Had he succeeded as Christian X, he would have continued the name alternating pattern of Danish monarchs: Frederik/Christian/Frederik/Christian.

I don't have any doubt that he would have chosen Christian as his regnal name. That tradition is set in stone and will not be changed.

 

[Muhler]

Probably Christian X.

 

[Prinsara]

I don't have any doubt that he would have chosen Christian as his regnal name. That tradition is set in stone and will not be changed.

Even Queen Margrethe considers herself a 'Christian', succeeding Frederik, and has a Frederik and a Christian to follow her. The only difference is Christian XI will come along a bit later than originally planned.

 

[Somebody]

Even Queen Margrethe considers herself a 'Christian', succeeding Frederik, and has a Frederik and a Christian to follow her. The only difference is Christian XI will come along a bit later than originally planned.

Joachim also had Christian as one of his middle names, so he could have succeeded Frederik if needed. And while Vincent has 'Frederik' as one of his middle name, if Christian wouldn't have any children, it would be his sister Isabella to succeed him if needed.

Both Knud's sons had both Christian and Frederik among their many names.

 

[Muhler]

Yes, and Isabella can take the name Margrethe - or Ingrid, which is more unlikely and probably only an option, if there are two female successors in a row.
We've had several formidable queen Margrethe in our history. None of them a monarch in their own rights though, but if we look at their influence, the current QMII, could justifiable just as well call herself QMIV.

 

[mybags]

Does anyone know the date of the funeral of Princess Caroline Mathilde in 1995 or if there were any foreign royals present?

 

[Blog Real]

Prince Knud of Denmark in 1935.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Knud,_Hereditary_Prince_of_Denmark.jpg

 

[JR76]

Does anyone know the date of the funeral of Princess Caroline Mathilde in 1995 or if there were any foreign royals present?

According to this report Queen Sonja and Princess Astrid of Norway were present at the funeral. I do wonder if not any of her numerous German relatives was present.

 

[mybags]

Thanks! It would definitely be interesting to know if any of her German relatives were present.

 

[maria-olivia]

Count Ingolf was Widow at that time .