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  #261  
Old 06-11-2007, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lisamaria
Actually, I think Paris Hilton has tried all of those; she is neither remarkably bad nor remarkably good at them



Which sort of was my point. The ordinary girls seem always have it the hardest when it comes to dating famous men - guess it is only natural. Nobody hates the models in Vogue because they are beautiful. Many hate the girls next door for being pretty. Nobody envies Bill Gates for his money. Many would hate to see their neighbour to win in lottery.

But here is a question: has Prince Albert earned a more remarkable woman? Could he ever get one? With his track record, he just might be the one settling.
I think that is a very good point because it goes to the idea that people like to believe that PA is different somehow than regular people. In the end, he is not.

CW and PA probably each deserve just as they've gotten in one another and nothing is wrong with that at all. It's just like what most people do when they date someone.

If CW could be attracted to men who cannot commit, she probably got the exact right person in PA because I do not think he is the committing type. PA may like 'eye candy' blonde with no demands - he may have gotten someone good for him too. (JMO).

One might hope for more because of the oft told 'fairytale' that is associated with the "normal girl next door meets rich prince and becomes a princess' story.

I admit that the 'normal girl next door meets rich prince and moves halfway around the world to start shacking up with him even though he says he'll never marry her" bit is not the story line most people are used to - this variation it's a little hard to swallow sometimes.

But it's not anyone else life but theirs and imo people (like me, I admit) need to just get over all of it We do not live in a story book.
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  #262  
Old 06-11-2007, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
I admit that the 'normal girl next door meets rich prince and moves halfway around the world to start shacking up with him even though he says he'll never marry her" bit is not the story line most people are used to - this variation it's a little hard to swallow sometimes.
Ladies I admit it is a very unusual (to me) view of what is normal and ordinary if you think that someone who has been selected for an Olympic team is in any way normal or ordinary no matter what their faults be otherwise. Charlene may be plain looking, awkward, uneducated, but I wouldn't in a million years call her ordinary.

I don't know about anyone else here but I don't know many Olympic caliber athletes (OK I admit I don't know ANY Olympic caliber athletes) Surely if these athletes were so ordinary and undescript, there would be more of them around and we'd be bumping into them all the time in the streets.
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  #263  
Old 06-11-2007, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Ladies I admit it is a very unusual (to me) view of what is normal and ordinary if you think that someone who has been selected for an Olympic team is in any way normal or ordinary no matter what their faults be otherwise. Charlene may be plain looking, awkward, uneducated, but I wouldn't in a million years call her ordinary.

I don't know about anyone else here but I don't know many Olympic caliber athletes (OK I admit I don't know ANY Olympic caliber athletes) Surely if these athletes were so ordinary and undescript, there would be more of them around and we'd be bumping into them all the time in the streets.
Actually, I have had the pleasure of meeting quite a few Olympic athletes in different sports. They are no different than other successful people in other walks of life. What they share in common is a passion for what they do, and a determination to excell at it. Bill Gates is no Olympic athlete but he was passionate about computers and now world health. In that regard he shares common characteristics with them. No I haven't met Bill Gates - I was just using him as an example. There are many around us who are not household names but share these qualities and we might consider them ordinary but to those who know them they are not. I would prefer to use another word than ordinary to describe Charlene although I understand what was ment by it. Outside her sport one could say she was ordinary as she has not used her gifts of passion and determination to excell in other areas of her life in that regard she is ordinary.
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  #264  
Old 06-11-2007, 11:02 PM
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Ah thanks for explaining hibou. You make a lot of sense. Someone who is quite extraordinary in one area can be quite ordinary in another. I imagine while none of us can excel at everything, everyone of us has something that is quite ordinary about us.
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  #265  
Old 06-11-2007, 11:57 PM
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To be an Olympian

To be an Olympian as explained by a famous Greek poet is to feel and act in a certain manner.An Olympian cherishes the Olympic deal first and foremost and is a phihellene . I do notknow if CW has come to these things as yet. By her actions I think not. I do not think she has read the ancients.& thatis disregard for the Olympics.The Olympics area spiritual experience as well as a physical one . But the spirituality is what they begin with- the lighting of the torch-and invocations to the celestial.
One does not have to win the medal to attain the status but keep, live & preserve the ideal going on in their lives forever.
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  #266  
Old 06-12-2007, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaya
To be an Olympian as explained by a famous Greek poet is to feel and act in a certain manner.An Olympian cherishes the Olympic deal first and foremost and is a phihellene . I do notknow if CW has come to these things as yet. By her actions I think not. I do not think she has read the ancients.& thatis disregard for the Olympics.The Olympics area spiritual experience as well as a physical one . But the spirituality is what they begin with- the lighting of the torch-and invocations to the celestial.
One does not have to win the medal to attain the status but keep, live & preserve the ideal going on in their lives forever.
Carrying the conversation further from the above posts as well, one could say that Bill Gates has an Olympian spirit thus making him extraordinary. One could also say that Princess Grace had an Olympian spirit as she drew upon her gifts in the same manner making her extraordinary as well.
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  #267  
Old 06-12-2007, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hibou
Carrying the conversation further from the above posts as well, one could say that Bill Gates has an Olympian spirit thus making him extraordinary. One could also say that Princess Grace had an Olympian spirit as she drew upon her gifts in the same manner making her extraordinary as well.
When you bring Grace in, you have to remember that she was raised by one (who won several medals) and the brother of one. In my own experience I can say that there is a certain family mentality involved. Especially in those days of Grace Kelly's father people were a lot stricter and very disciplined. Even if you are not that interested in sports yourself, your being brought up to always give your best in whatever you do, to act as an example to others, to play fair and to show compassion for others who are less fortunete.

What I have noticed though is that in order to be successful in certain sports, there is a certain mentality intrinsic to each sport. I come from an athletics background, where there was a lot of emphasis on education. School was always put first, then came the sport. As my mother was also a coach, she would apply the same rule to those she coached and stop over- ambitious parents from pushing their children too much in athletics and have them grow up unbalanced by having the main focus on sport. A lot of athletes I grew up with (famous German ones too) became doctors, sports journalists ( not just commentators, but actually after finishing a university degree) etc. If you did athletics, it was required to lead a balanced life. Many of my athletic friends excelled also in music and arts. In contrast you had the soccer players. I have to add that there is a very strong dislike between soccer players and athletics athletes, probably due to the fact that they are using the same facilities but clubs are more likely to invest in a new lawn then a new track. but there is also a difference in background. soccer was one of the first sports in Germany (and other European countries) which would earn you enough money to fully concentrate on your sport and not on work. I believe that concerned the generation from the mid sixties onwards. Before also soccer players had a proper job to put food on the table. MOst soccer players though came (in contrast to the origins of their sport) from working class backgrounds. The popularity of the sport being due to it's availability, the lack of other things to do and the possibility to play it anywhere with anything you can kick. It is no miracle that the most successful and most admired team in the world recruits it's player from the favellas. Name me one famous soccer player that came from a privileged background nowadays. It is the sport of the poor and admired mostly by the poor. It gives them an opportunity to dream, but also as players to change the course of their life and that of their families. In contrast you have the formula one which seems to be the sport of mainly rich sons, when you look at Senna or Berger. The exception being Schumacher who came from a fairly modest background, but whose success might be due to the working class attitude he brought to his sport. He is also considered an excellent soccerplayer. With judokas I noticed that you need a certain aggressiveness, so when at the games a discontented team started throwing bottles, the concerned athlete only shrugged shoulders, whereas those not at home in the sport, felt insulted and outraged at such a behaviour. In wintersports I have noticed that skiers seem to be more like those who practice athletics, always ready to lend a hand to those who are in need of help, wheras snowboarders are more like soccerplayers with a more careless attitude (running over people, lining up in front of others etc). The swimmers I have met are mostly evolving around themselves and those in their world. they are not particularly interested in other sports or people who do practice other sports. You either swim or you don't. I have also noticed that they are not particularly gifted in learning other sports, because their movements are so different and there are other muscels involved as in swimming (hence their unique build). I recently saw a documentary about the university admissions test of a German university. There were several thousand applicants from all over the world who wanted to pass the test in order to study sports at university. It is supposed to be the toughest test in Europe due to the number of different sports that you need to practice in one day. I actually had to laugh because the requirements in athletics were pretty much what a 12 year old girl would achieve during a regular training session. Even my mother would pass this test. The professors said that mainly they where judging whether the students understood the movement so they could work on it. In athletics and swimming they were actually measuring, but in all other sports it was not about winning but about whether or not they had control over their body and if they were told to change a certain movement whether they could quickly apply what they have been told. Those who came from swimming, were those with most problems. In athletics we were actually told not to do too much swimming (fun swimming yes fro relaxing the muscles, but not really training), because it would slow you down and you would lose your sprinting capacity.

As an answer to other posts about education and sports, I believe that it is a good thing that in countries like Germany sports is mostly seperated from education. You are supposed to get a place at university because of your intelligence and your mental capacities, not because the university team needs a good 800m runner or a quarterback. Combining sports with a place at university corrupts education, because there is money to be made in sports and if a quarterback would get thrown out of university because he is a morron, the officials can put pressure on the professor to give him a pass even though intellectually he does not deserve it. In an ideal world that wouldn't happen, but in the real world it does all the time and that is why I personally would always take the degree of an American athlete with a grain of salt, until I have personally met the person. I am sure that the system was installed with good intentions in order to get children from underpriviledged backgrounds, who otherwise would not benefit from a higher education, the chance to a better education and thus a better life, but I am not certain whether it really works that well and if it wouldn't have been better to either reserve a number of places to those groups and encourage students to study hard to obtain a scholarship. Your time in sports is always limited and there is always the chance of an unfortunete injury. And what happens then? And I guess that when Charlene started dating Albert, she was facing exactly that question (as she was recovering from an injury and having to face the fact tha her sport was being taken over by teenagers). ANd by dating him, she found her answer.

Sorry for all this detour moderators.
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  #268  
Old 06-12-2007, 08:22 AM
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Hi Paca, Your points about the importance of education and sports are well taken, I wouldn't generalise about all US educational institutions. Harvard for example certainly doesn't allow idiots to attend just because they are good at rugby or rowing. I do understand that some Univ. in the US have done this in the past but are now in the process of correcting that mistake. Now days many who do not wish the education, and excell in their sport are recuited by the "Pro" teams. When their athletic careers are over they often regret not having obtained the degree. It does depend on the individual family. I was always required by my parents to maintain a Dean's list status or my sport would have to go.

Charlene made her choice early and her parents obviously supported her decision. Sadly she appears not to have parlayed that passion and the Olympic spirit into other areas of her life. Now that I am older and a Mother I wholely support your argument for the division of educational values and sports when it it taken to the extreme.
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  #269  
Old 06-12-2007, 09:29 AM
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I think if your family does encourage your sport more then your education (which IMO is the one thing that parents can give their children that cannot be taken away from them), especially at a very young age then your parents have a different agenda then the childs well being. In my course of life I have met with many parents who keep pushing their children in all sorts of areas. But ultimately those parents did not consider their childs wishes but were persuing sth that they did not have themselves. I believe with Charlenes parents it might be their own abition for recognition. Wasn't her mother a gymnast and her father coaching Charlene for some time? I think that some of her problems with regards to behaviour also have to do with her leaving home very young and a home especially that did not see it as important to look into a good education and good manners, although those are IMO most telling about where you are coming from and the points that could be most hindering for a child as it becomes an adult. Though I could understand a family pushing a child with the lack of intellectual skills but a sportive talent to excel in that area, I still think that basic manners and behaviour skills should be taught to even the least intellectual child. But then again as I said before manners are the most telling about where you are comming from and who raised you. You can learn a lot later, but people will always be able to tell whether it is natural or studied to cover your roots.
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  #270  
Old 06-12-2007, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paca
I think if your family does encourage your sport more then your education (which IMO is the one thing that parents can give their children that cannot be taken away from them), especially at a very young age then your parents have a different agenda then the childs well being. In my course of life I have met with many parents who keep pushing their children in all sorts of areas. But ultimately those parents did not consider their childs wishes but were persuing sth that they did not have themselves. I believe with Charlenes parents it might be their own abition for recognition. Wasn't her mother a gymnast and her father coaching Charlene for some time? I think that some of her problems with regards to behaviour also have to do with her leaving home very young and a home especially that did not see it as important to look into a good education and good manners, although those are IMO most telling about where you are coming from and the points that could be most hindering for a child as it becomes an adult. Though I could understand a family pushing a child with the lack of intellectual skills but a sportive talent to excel in that area, I still think that basic manners and behaviour skills should be taught to even the least intellectual child. But then again as I said before manners are the most telling about where you are comming from and who raised you. You can learn a lot later, but people will always be able to tell whether it is natural or studied to cover your roots.
I have seen the very thing that you speak of. I call it child as appendage of parent's ego and then there is competitive parenting with each pushing the child to outdo the other. The child fails to grow into a mature well rounded individual and for those who obtain a moment's glory but have no "plan B" when it is over often end up very troubled individuals, and yes I agree, manners do begin at home! great posts paca.
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  #271  
Old 06-12-2007, 12:42 PM
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Thanks paca

Thanks paca for the insightful aforementioned posts on athletes and what CW may have faced herself.
It is notable that the modern Greek poet I speak of had a wife who lived to be a hundred years old and was always asking us if we are Olympians when we visited their house.The poet I speak of is :Giorgos Seferis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and in his books of essays he speaks at length analytically about athletes and Olympics.
your contributions have enriched our perspectives on CW and the challenges she may have faced and I a can only say how humbly& much I appreciate this.
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  #272  
Old 06-12-2007, 07:02 PM
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Okay...let's move on from the detour.
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  #273  
Old 06-13-2007, 06:26 PM
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Well after reading through this thread I can see people feel quite strongly and mostly negatively about poor Charlene. I am not entirly sure what the justification is as I assume few if any members have ever met her or talked to her. Most of the information seems to come from tabloids and glossy picture magazines. People say she doesnt train as a swimmer but she seems to have regained her South African champioship in the 50M backstroke and then placed 3rd in a international event over the last couple of months, so unless she in unnaturally gifted I would bet that some training was involved. Even if she never makes it to another Olympic Games she has already demonstrated a level of commitment and achievement very few ever achieve. Then there is the discussion on the age gap. 20 years is indeed a large gap, but not the first time it has ever happened. Do not the Duke and Duchess of Braganza have a large age gap as well and he wasn't exactly young when they married and started a family. Her fashion choices have not always been on the mark but I doubt there is a man or woman alive who has not committed more than one fashion faux pas over the years. I don't know if they wll ever marry, but I bet if they do the same people who have been so quick to criticize will sing her praises once they pop a tiara on her head and dress her in Chanel and Dior. I am curious through if anyone knows if she speaks French or is taking lessons, that after all is one thing that will be required of her if they marry. Grace had to learn it, and never really felt comfortable with the language in interviews.
I think we should give her a break and wait to see if they do marry and she then becomes Princess of Monaco. In the end, no matter who Prince Albert marries they will suffer in comparison to the public image of his mother.
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  #274  
Old 06-13-2007, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine
Well after reading through this thread I can see people feel quite strongly and mostly negatively about poor Charlene. I am not entirly sure what the justification is as I assume few if any members have ever met her or talked to her. Most of the information seems to come from tabloids and glossy picture magazines. People say she doesnt train as a swimmer but she seems to have regained her South African champioship in the 50M backstroke and then placed 3rd in a international event over the last couple of months, so unless she in unnaturally gifted I would bet that some training was involved. Even if she never makes it to another Olympic Games she has already demonstrated a level of commitment and achievement very few ever achieve. Then there is the discussion on the age gap. 20 years is indeed a large gap, but not the first time it has ever happened. Do not the Duke and Duchess of Braganza have a large age gap as well and he wasn't exactly young when they married and started a family. Her fashion choices have not always been on the mark but I doubt there is a man or woman alive who has not committed more than one fashion faux pas over the years. I don't know if they wll ever marry, but I bet if they do the same people who have been so quick to criticize will sing her praises once they pop a tiara on her head and dress her in Chanel and Dior. I am curious through if anyone knows if she speaks French or is taking lessons, that after all is one thing that will be required of her if they marry. Grace had to learn it, and never really felt comfortable with the language in interviews.
I think we should give her a break and wait to see if they do marry and she then becomes Princess of Monaco. In the end, no matter who Prince Albert marries they will suffer in comparison to the public image of his mother.
With all due respect, what we say about her will be nothing once the press first builds her up then tears her down, and yes whoever he marries will be compared to Grace. However, a smart and cleaver girl will cut her own path in the woods. So as as far as I'm concerned, we are just the warm up act for what she can expect. If she can't take the heat then she should get out of the kitchen. After all when you read the threads on the other royal ladies, this group is rather mild. JMO
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  #275  
Old 06-13-2007, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hibou
With all due respect, what we say about her will be nothing once the press first builds her up then tears her down, and yes whoever he marries will be compared to Grace. However, a smart and cleaver girl will cut her own path in the woods. So as as far as I'm concerned, we are just the warm up act for what she can expect. If she can't take the heat then she should get out of the kitchen. After all when you read the threads on the other royal ladies, this group is rather mild. JMO
Perhaps, but since she isn't running away I would assume that she can indeed take the heat. Sorry, I didnt realize that commenting on "royal ladies" was a blood sport.
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  #276  
Old 06-13-2007, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine
Perhaps, but since she isn't running away I would assume that she can indeed take the heat. Sorry, I didnt realize that commenting on "royal ladies" was a blood sport.
Your new here, go read the other threads you'll see what I mean! No Charlene isn't running away, so she seems to take the heat and if she does get the tiara she can laugh her way to the bank! But she will have to speak French in order to communicate to her subjects and on that you are correct we have not read nor heard from our posters who live in and near Monaco whether or not she can speak their language. I'm sure now that we've posted our complaints we will read from one of the tabloids (Bunte) that she is studing hard and is now fluent in French. It seems to work that way too many times to be a coincidence on this board. Just my observation. In fact there was one time that paca made a very insightful post and not a week later it looked like they lifted it right off the thread. Of course we can't prove a thing but it certainly raised eye brows! Welcome to the board and happy posting!
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  #277  
Old 06-13-2007, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine
Well after reading through this thread I can see people feel quite strongly and mostly negatively about poor Charlene. I am not entirly sure what the justification is as I assume few if any members have ever met her or talked to her. Most of the information seems to come from tabloids and glossy picture magazines. People say she doesnt train as a swimmer but she seems to have regained her South African champioship in the 50M backstroke and then placed 3rd in a international event over the last couple of months, so unless she in unnaturally gifted I would bet that some training was involved. Even if she never makes it to another Olympic Games she has already demonstrated a level of commitment and achievement very few ever achieve. Then there is the discussion on the age gap. 20 years is indeed a large gap, but not the first time it has ever happened. Do not the Duke and Duchess of Braganza have a large age gap as well and he wasn't exactly young when they married and started a family. Her fashion choices have not always been on the mark but I doubt there is a man or woman alive who has not committed more than one fashion faux pas over the years. I don't know if they wll ever marry, but I bet if they do the same people who have been so quick to criticize will sing her praises once they pop a tiara on her head and dress her in Chanel and Dior. I am curious through if anyone knows if she speaks French or is taking lessons, that after all is one thing that will be required of her if they marry. Grace had to learn it, and never really felt comfortable with the language in interviews.
I think we should give her a break and wait to see if they do marry and she then becomes Princess of Monaco. In the end, no matter who Prince Albert marries they will suffer in comparison to the public image of his mother.
As to her gaining a title, that is not too difficult when all the major competition calls in absent after on the spot preparation for the more important worldchampionships which ended the week before in Melbourne if I recall the timing correctly. So no mystery or miracle swim there, just lack of competition.

As to her learning French, well Albert said himself as they were approached by Bunte journalists in Kitz this winter that she speaks English, not French or German. In the volunteers canteen she did not manage to get a meal without help from a bodyguard and one of Alberts helps. Considering that all she had to do was point at what she wanted, I assume that after 1 and a half years of intensive learning of French and protocol lessons with Mme Gallico (according to Bunte), she is still incapable to order a meal on her own (she spoke English from what I overheard), dress appropriately and manage knife and fork accidentfree with the correct hand whilst maintaining the food in its appropriate places (either plate or mouth, but not going back and fourth between the two) I should assume that by now she will be an expert in catholizism since she flunked aforementioned classes and that was the other one that Bunte claimed she was spending much time on. Seeing that she spent the night sharing a cabin with her boyfriend on board though, I think that she flunked that one too, as I do not recall that part of the catechism Guess she spend the last 18 months improving other skills or she just doesn't improve or is having very poor or disinterested teachers. whichever it is, it is not playing in her favor as I have heard nothing positive mentioned from anyone who met and observed her. And people had plenty of time on their hands to do so. I suppose Albert exposed her so much that people would actually get to know and like her. Too bad for him that it didn't work out that way.
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  #278  
Old 06-13-2007, 07:34 PM
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Personally,I think it's a moot point. At this point, I doubt Albert will ever marry. I do think that Charlene is an improvement over the last two he procreated with. If he is not going to marry, there needs to be some preparation for Caroline's eldest, which there does not seem to be much evidence of.
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  #279  
Old 06-13-2007, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine
Well after reading through this thread I can see people feel quite strongly and mostly negatively about poor Charlene. I am not entirly sure what the justification is as I assume few if any members have ever met her or talked to her. Most of the information seems to come from tabloids and glossy picture magazines. People say she doesnt train as a swimmer but she seems to have regained her South African champioship in the 50M backstroke and then placed 3rd in a international event over the last couple of months, so unless she in unnaturally gifted I would bet that some training was involved. Even if she never makes it to another Olympic Games she has already demonstrated a level of commitment and achievement very few ever achieve. Then there is the discussion on the age gap. 20 years is indeed a large gap, but not the first time it has ever happened. Do not the Duke and Duchess of Braganza have a large age gap as well and he wasn't exactly young when they married and started a family. Her fashion choices have not always been on the mark but I doubt there is a man or woman alive who has not committed more than one fashion faux pas over the years. I don't know if they wll ever marry, but I bet if they do the same people who have been so quick to criticize will sing her praises once they pop a tiara on her head and dress her in Chanel and Dior. I am curious through if anyone knows if she speaks French or is taking lessons, that after all is one thing that will be required of her if they marry. Grace had to learn it, and never really felt comfortable with the language in interviews.
I think we should give her a break and wait to see if they do marry and she then becomes Princess of Monaco. In the end, no matter who Prince Albert marries they will suffer in comparison to the public image of his mother.
I did not see CW name on this list of SA women swimmers that ranked in the 50M backstroke. Maybe it is there...

Individual Top Times by Stroke/Distance (short)

Individual Top Times by Stroke/Distance (long)

the links are for 2006-2007 South African swim team rankings. It shows as of November 2006 (just 6 mo ago)

Here is the website:
Swimming South Africa - www.swimsa.co.za - The official home of swimming in South Africa

and they have named the SA National and Olympic squad it seems:

Swimming South Africa - www.swimsa.co.za - The official home of swimming in South Africa

I did see her name on the SA National team for 2007/2008. But not the SA Olympic team for 2007/2008.

It looks like the Masters will be next spring in Australia.
FINA - Index

Here are more international swimming results for the 50M backstroke. Maybe CW is there?

www.fina.org | Official FINA Website | swimming

you have to select "backstroke" and "women" to see the 2006/2007 rankings. It is possible to see up to 150 different names in the different events along with the rank.

I have to say that I am glad that CW has the ability to do whatever she wants, because she has lot of flexibility to make these kinds of choices about what she wants for her future
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  #280  
Old 06-13-2007, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paca
Seeing that she spent the night sharing a cabin with her boyfriend on board though, I think that she flunked that one too, as I do not recall that part of the catechism
I still find this hard to believe that these two ever really dated. This relationship seems hoax. They spend night on the ship, but it doesn't have to mean they shared cabin. BTW I recall what Stevie Parker, Albert's former lover(real one) told, that when she was traveling with Albert they always slept in separate rooms, b/c t was "appropriate".
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