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  #161  
Old 08-01-2010, 08:09 AM
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Let's kill the illegtimate talk...we know Albert and Tamara were not married when Jazmin was conceived.

For the record, Monaco has a history of children born out of wedlock who have had a role in Monaco, so anything is possible.
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  #162  
Old 08-01-2010, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Let's kill the illegtimate talk...we know Albert and Tamara were not married when Jazmin was conceived.

For the record, Monaco has a history of children born out of wedlock who have had a role in Monaco, so anything is possible.
I agree Zonk. The kids are here like it or not and you can't change history. As for the discussion of "The Will" Jaya stated correctly using the Picasso estate example that the kids will by law be included in his estate. He cannot legally leave them out whether his has more kids with Charlene or not. They are his. They are acknowledged by him as his, and they are by law entitled to a portion of his estate.
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  #163  
Old 08-01-2010, 12:50 PM
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To clarify, on April 2, 2002, Monaco's constitution changed and implemented Princely Law 1.249 (seen here in its entirety: List of Succession to the Monegasque Throne - Definition), which spells out clearly & concisely the rules of succession.

Basically, if Albert does not legally marry and produce a legitimate biological offspring, then the crown will automatically pass to his sister or her children. The only way an illegitimate biological offspring can succeed to the throne is if his/her parents are legally married. In Albert's case, he would have to marry either Jazmin's mother or Alexandre's mother in order for either one of their children to inherit the throne. This is why you do not see Stephanie's youngest child, Camille, on the list of succession, because Stephanie never married Camille's father. End of story.

By the way, the 2002 succession law is more strict than the one passed in 1918, namely the old law stated that the reigning prince could adopt an heir (be it biological or not; this is how Prince Louis II was able to make his illegitimate daughter, Charlotte, his heir) to succeed him upon his death if he died without a legitimate biological heir. This option no longer exists, now if the reigning prince dies without a legitimate biological heir, the crown passes automatically to the next sibling and his/her children.

Of course, any change to the constitution has to be approved by Monaco's Crown Council.

This is all pedantic really, as I'm sure Albert will legally marry Charlene Wittstock next summer on July 9, 2011, and eventually the two will produce a legitimate heir. :)

And I stand by what I stated earlier, Prince Albert's relationship with his children has always been private, and should remain thus imho. Until He sees fit to change this, then abide by his code of privacy, silence, and respect on this delicate issue. In my humble opinion.

Edited To Add: I realize, of course, as long as there are busybodies who delight in making mischief, meddling in the affairs of others, and stirring the pot, Prince Albert & his children will be given no peace nor privacy regarding their relationship. C'est la vie...
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  #164  
Old 08-01-2010, 01:16 PM
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I agree that Albert's children should be allowed to grow up privately. I think that is the case for all royal children and children of celebrities. When they turn 18, and if they decide to seek a life in the spotlight than that is totally different. But then they should be prepared for the good and bad aspects of a public life.

What I dislike is the term illegtimate, we all know the parents never married. We don't need to be reminded all of time on this forum or via the press.

IMO its like people are using it to bash the kids or for shock value. For the record, I don't think that is the case with the members of TRF but still...do we need to say it everytime?
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  #165  
Old 08-01-2010, 02:50 PM
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Zonk, could you suggest a term which will be less offensive (to you and others)?

We could then agree on this between all of us.

There are alternatives: born out of wedlock; offspring of putative marriages; born of an unwed mother; extramarital relationship; and - yes, it's still around! - "bastard".

In any case, the percentage of live births outside marriage are growing fast in many countries.

There is also a strong growth in so-called "non-paternity events", i.e. mothers giving birth by sperm donation, without a father being part of the picture.

So, the "problem" will solve itself in due course.
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  #166  
Old 08-01-2010, 02:53 PM
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How about this...just his daughter and son?

Do we say Charlotte legitimate daughter of Caroline and Stefano?
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  #167  
Old 08-01-2010, 02:57 PM
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I think that we might agree on "Alexandre, son of Nicole" or "Nicole's son Alex", or even "Albert's son by Nicole". Obviously the same for Jazmin....
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  #168  
Old 08-01-2010, 02:58 PM
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that might work. Alex, Alber'ts son with Nicole. Jazmin, Albert's son with Tamara.
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  #169  
Old 08-01-2010, 03:01 PM
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Might it be worth enshrining that into the "Rules" ? It would signal a basic respect for the family members.
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  #170  
Old 08-01-2010, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renata4711 View Post
Zonk, could you suggest a term which will be less offensive (to you and others)?

We could then agree on this between all of us.

There are alternatives: born out of wedlock; offspring of putative marriages; born of an unwed mother; extramarital relationship; and - yes, it's still around! - "bastard".

In any case, the percentage of live births outside marriage are growing fast in many countries.

There is also a strong growth in so-called "non-paternity events", i.e. mothers giving birth by sperm donation, without a father being part of the picture.

So, the "problem" will solve itself in due course.

Right now they are Albert's only children so why not just say Albert's kids. If he and Charlene have kids, you can always say Charlene's step-children or Albert's older kids. Or, just say Albert's son Alex, Albert's daughter Jazmin. There's really not need to mention the mothers at all.
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  #171  
Old 08-01-2010, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by hibou View Post
Right now they are Albert's only children so why not just say Albert's kids. If he and Charlene have kids, you can always say Charlene's step-children or Albert's older kids. Just a suggestion.
I like your suggestion hibou. It does not make a distinction against either parent or child.
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  #172  
Old 08-01-2010, 03:24 PM
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I think it might be sad to leave the mums to one side !

PA and Tamara have created Jazmin, and PA and Nicole have created Alexandre together.


And with a bit of luck, PA and CW might create a new life together...
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  #173  
Old 08-01-2010, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Renata4711 View Post
I think it might be sad to leave the mums to one side !

PA and Tamara have created Jazmin, and PA and Nicole have created Alexandre together.


And with a bit of luck, PA and CW might create a new life together...
True, but they tend to cause a firestorm when their names are mentioned so it might be best for the sake of discussion to not mention them.
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  #174  
Old 08-01-2010, 03:49 PM
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Firestorm or not - they are a big part of the picture and will be more so, as they mature, and become more important to their father.

We're dealing with realities here, not with fairytales which we can conveniently sweep under the carpet.
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  #175  
Old 08-01-2010, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Renata4711 View Post
Firestorm or not - they are a big part of the picture and will be more so, as they mature, and become more important to their father.

We're dealing with realities here, not with fairytales which we can conveniently sweep under the carpet.
You are illustrating my point about firestorms rather well.
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  #176  
Old 08-01-2010, 05:40 PM
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Why discuss his children at all. They are not part of the Princely Family and will play no role in the official life of the principality. Their private relationship with their father is exactly that, private, and it no ones business but their own.

You dont see active discussions on the Dutch board of the "extra" daughters of Prince Bernhard or on the Belgian board of the extra daughter of King Albert II. Everyone knows they exist, but they are private citizens and what ever their relationship or lack there of to the royal relations it is a private matter.
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  #177  
Old 08-01-2010, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
How about this...just his daughter and son?

Do we say Charlotte legitimate daughter of Caroline and Stefano?
Great point. Seriously.
How about PA and Tamara's daughter Jazmin and PA and Nicole's son Alexandre?
After all, we'll refer to PA and Charlene's children as PA and Charlene's children, and refer to PS's kids as Princess Stephanie's child with so-and-so...etc....
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  #178  
Old 08-01-2010, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Why discuss his children at all. They are not part of the Princely Family and will play no role in the official life of the principality. Their private relationship with their father is exactly that, private, and it no ones business but their own.

You dont see active discussions on the Dutch board of the "extra" daughters of Prince Bernhard or on the Belgian board of the extra daughter of King Albert II. Everyone knows they exist, but they are private citizens and what ever their relationship or lack there of to the royal relations it is a private matter.
Well actually, there are threads about Delphine and Bernhard's daughters (I am sorry the names escape me at the moment). I guess the big difference is that they are ADULTS and Albert's kids are young. Well, Jazmin just turned 18 but you get my drift.
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  #179  
Old 08-01-2010, 05:52 PM
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This thread...i'm wondering, if Albert and Charlene have kids, this thread will be named as it is currently?
Because if they have kids, one day there will be a thread for their kids such as "Prince Albert and Family Current Events" or "Prince/ss ........ current events" and what will happen to this thread name? I mean, this thread will be use to discuss his children with Tamara and Nicole and there will be another one for his "princely" children?
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  #180  
Old 08-01-2010, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Well actually, there are threads about Delphine and Bernhard's daughters (I am sorry the names escape me at the moment). I guess the big difference is that they are ADULTS and Albert's kids are young. Well, Jazmin just turned 18 but you get my drift.
Yes, but they are not active and ongoing threads, people got over their existence. I would think that Albert's children being more or less minors would be even more of a reason to ignore their existence and leave them to whatever remains of their privacy.
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