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  #381  
Old 05-31-2009, 10:11 AM
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But until a few years ago, heirs were thin on the ground ! It took Rainier to have the Constitution changed to widen the field of pretenders to the throne. He must have realised that dynastic considerations were not high on his son's agenda.
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  #382  
Old 05-31-2009, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Renata4711 View Post
But until a few years ago, heirs were thin on the ground ! It took Rainier to have the Constitution changed to widen the field of pretenders to the throne. He must have realised that dynastic considerations were not high on his son's agenda.
pretenders to the throne? I would say equal rights personally. Britain allows male and females to the throne as to many others. I see nothing wrong with what Ranier did.
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  #383  
Old 05-31-2009, 01:13 PM
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pretenders to the throne? I would say equal rights personally. Britain allows male and females to the throne as to many others. I see nothing wrong with what Ranier did.
Britain only allowes a female if there isn't another male. And most countries have equal primogeniture, norway, belgium, spain, monaco, netherlands but Denmark nor Britain doesn't. To be quite honest I do hope Albert one day has a son or a daughter to provide an heir.

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  #384  
Old 05-31-2009, 01:16 PM
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I know how we got to this discussion of heirs and the rights of men and women, and why many feel that its Albert duty to marry provide a LEGITIMATE heir and those who believe that because of Caroline and her children some of the pressure is off ......but let's not get totally off topic.
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  #385  
Old 06-01-2009, 08:08 AM
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I'm not sure whether the age factor has been discussed before on this thread.

IF Albert were to marry now and father a child at, say, 53 years of age, the child would grow up with an ageing father. Were Albert to die before such a child reaches majority, a regent would have to be appointed. Where would all that leave the sisters and the Casiraghis?

I know Albert looks younger than his 51 years, but an age gap of twenty years, although not unusual, is not very easy to bridge.

In my own family there was an age gap of 28 years, and the female was made to feel like a daughter rather than a wife.

I can't image that Albert has not reflected many times over these possibilities or probabilities - after all, the world's media are constantly reminding him at every opportunity!
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  #386  
Old 06-05-2009, 06:40 PM
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Its hard to guess or speculate what is in his mind re having a legal child. He has said he plans to several times, but ye gads. He will certainly be an aged father, it would be like he's the grandfather when the kid gets to be a teenager or early teener.

I recall Agnell of Fiat having lots of fun skiiing with his grandsons, but they would go home when the fun is over.Age brings on other priorities, for example good h ealth, dexterity and a readiness for silliness.

I hope I'm wrong but taking a long shot but I just think his patience with youngsters is short. And it h appens all the time that some people still need more coddling themselves, and I suspect there is feeling of loss with them. I'm sure though right now through these years since he boasts of "I am a father"then he just avail himself when he gets the mood or desire.

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Originally Posted by olga101 View Post
Its hard to guess or speculate what is in his mind re having a legal child. He has said he plans to several times, but ye gads. He will certainly be an aged father, it would be like he's the grandfather when the kid gets to be a teenager or early teener.

I recall Agnell of Fiat having lots of fun skiiing with his grandsons, but they would go home when the fun is over.Age brings on other priorities, for example good h ealth, dexterity and a readiness for silliness.

I hope I'm wrong but taking a long shot but I just think his patience with youngsters is short. And it h appens all the time that some people still need more coddling themselves, and I suspect there is feeling of loss with them. I'm sure though right now through these years since he boasts of "I am a father"then he just avail himself when he gets the mood or desire.
Correction--I suspect there is NO feeling of loss with them.
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  #387  
Old 06-06-2009, 08:52 AM
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Stéphane Bern writes about Charlene (not very nice things...)

Stéphane Bern is a very famous royal journalist in the French-speaking countries. Although I don´t appreciate him one must have to admit he is VERY close to the Grimaldis.
And he says Charlene cannot speak, cannot speak French either, cannot dress properly and remains a protestant.
According to him she has a long way to go before a wedding.

Le prince Albert de Monaco et Charlene: pourquoi ils hésitent encore | LeMatin.ch
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  #388  
Old 06-06-2009, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Alberto2244 View Post
Stéphane Bern is a very famous royal journalist in the French-speaking countries. Although I don´t appreciate him one must have to admit he is VERY close to the Grimaldis.
And he says Charlene cannot speak, cannot speak French either, cannot dress properly and remains a protestant.
According to him she has a long way to go before a wedding.

Le prince Albert de Monaco et Charlene: pourquoi ils hésitent encore | LeMatin.ch
Oh, it could be an interesting article. Sorry I don't understand French. Could you translate it English? Thanks a lot!
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  #389  
Old 06-06-2009, 03:08 PM
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Well, using the google translator (i don't know if it too reliable) it says basically what we all know: She is a calm, down to earth person, she can't speak french yet but apparently she is still learning the language, and wants to improve her french.
It also says that Albert has learn the lesson from the previous marriage that took place in Monaco (his parents marriage) and that he doesn't like at all the media presure, it's not appealing for a marriage (or something like that).
Charlene is going to be compared to Grace (as we all know) and that that is unfair because the only thing they have in common is that they are both blonde and beautiful (according to the article).
It says that Charlene is still protestant but is taking some clases to convert to catholisicism.
And the last thing that i can't understand very well (because of this translator) i think is that Albert is fighting for the Principality to not be in the grey list of heaven taxes anymore.
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  #390  
Old 06-06-2009, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Renata4711 View Post
If one is to believe BUNTE's Stefan Blatt, Charlene has already made such an impact on the Monegasques that (he says) they venerate her as a Princess!

("...Charlene ist zur staendigen Begleiterin Alberts geworden und wird von den Monegassen schon wie eine Fuerstin verehrt")

Blatt also states that the Monegasque ladies curtsey to her.

The event in question was Bellini's opera "Norma" which Albert attended with Caroline and Charlene.

BUNTE Royal: Premiere und ein Abschied - BUNTE
I think " Norma" has the drama you say Bunte states.This is quite exaggerated that anyone venerates Miss Wittstock.I think time will tell if she has earned the respect of the Monegasques.Deo Juvante

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberto2244 View Post
Stéphane Bern is a very famous royal journalist in the French-speaking countries. Although I don´t appreciate him one must have to admit he is VERY close to the Grimaldis.
And he says Charlene cannot speak, cannot speak French either, cannot dress properly and remains a protestant.
According to him she has a long way to go before a wedding.

Le prince Albert de Monaco et Charlene: pourquoi ils hésitent encore | LeMatin.ch
As long as Miss Wittsock remains a Protestant according to Rainier's will there cannot be wedding bells. If Cw is behind in her French lessons she should catch up not for anyone else but herself as she has done with her appearance.If there is an iota of truth in that she has a long distance to traverse before marriage then I send my best wishes.
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  #391  
Old 06-08-2009, 05:35 PM
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According to some reports, the late Princess Grace never mastered the French language..she remained a student her entire life. But then again the Princess was busy with child rearing and her innumerable social and charitable duties, she had her hands quite full from beginning to the end of her remarkable life.

As for Charlene, she has been a permanent residence of the Principality for about three years now, with a LOT of time on her hands. This is more than enough time for her to have immersed herself in the French language to a degree that she should be at least able to speak and understand somewhat....as for her still being a Protestant, if true it is the strongest indication so far that Albert is content to keep her as maitresse en titre and has no intention to marry her. He must realize that a non-Catholic Princess would be a first, and probably unacceptable to his subjects as well.

Monaco and the world have changed for sure..but not THAT much.

How baffling it all is.....
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  #392  
Old 06-08-2009, 09:15 PM
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What puzzles me is the fact that neither Grace nor Charlene seem to have learnt French in school. At least there would have been some foundation to build on.
As a teacher/tutor of French, I have sympathy with anyone who has to learn the language in order to earn a living or in their private life.

In Charlene's case I suspect that she mixes mainly with bilingual or trilingual people in Monaco. Still, it's no excuse for not learning French. This would enable her to be taken more seriously by ordinary Monégasques as well as members of the government or the Mairie.

The Protestant "problem" is not as bad as one thinks. If Albert were to marry Charlene or any other female Protestant, the marriage vows would not be said at the altar, but a step lower.
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  #393  
Old 06-08-2009, 11:14 PM
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Well I can't speak for Charlene's South African education but I will say at least now...while its a requirement for US students to learn a language. Its not like how it is in Europe. For example, you need maybe two years of a language in high school at least in Maryland. But its not a graduation requirement you are fluent in the language, you just need to learn how to conguate a verb, etc. Say a couple of phrases. Of course, if one major's in a language then its totally different.

I myself took two years of Latin so it could help me on SAT's. Do you think I can speak it Did it help me on my SAT's...NO!

Now for Grace, its surprising that she was not fluent only because of her background (quasi society girl although she was new money). I can't remember is she Main Line Philadelphia? I am thinking no new money. Anyone who is part of the true society might have learnt a language i.e. Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis.

Now in regards to Charlene, if she is not working then she could make an effort to learn French. I mean, Mary of Denmark and Maxima of the Netherlands speak their new languages fairly well but I think they were married so it was more of an effort. Or maybe they saw a goal and realize the importance of their new roles.

Either way I have said it before and I will say it again....Charlene is a grown woman if she is willing to accept this relationship as it is...who am I to question it.
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  #394  
Old 06-09-2009, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post


Well I can't speak for Charlene's South African education but I will say at least now...while its a requirement for US students to learn a language. Its not like how it is in Europe. For example, you need maybe two years of a language in high school at least in Maryland. But its not a graduation requirement you are fluent in the language, you just need to learn how to conguate a verb, etc. Say a couple of phrases. Of course, if one major's in a language then its totally different.

I myself took two years of Latin so it could help me on SAT's. Do you think I can speak it Did it help me on my SAT's...NO!

Now for Grace, its surprising that she was not fluent only because of her background (quasi society girl although she was new money). I can't remember is she Main Line Philadelphia? I am thinking no new money. Anyone who is part of the true society might have learnt a language i.e. Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis.

Now in regards to Charlene, if she is not working then she could make an effort to learn French. I mean, Mary of Denmark and Maxima of the Netherlands speak their new languages fairly well but I think they were married so it was more of an effort. Or maybe they saw a goal and realize the importance of their new roles.

Either way I have said it before and I will say it again....Charlene is a grown woman if she is willing to accept this relationship as it is...who am I to question it.
Grace was not from "the Main Line". She was considered new money. Her father felt discriminated against in many ways which is one reason he pushed her brother Kell so hard. It was a way to be accepted. Her father did not consider acting an acceptable career and was more than delighted when Rainier proposed. Grace knew very little French at the time of her marriage but learned it quickly. That is not to say that it didn't take her a while to feel comfortable speaking it in public. As for US High Schools you are correct about the languages but it varies. In private schools 3 years is required. If you do well you move to the advanced sections and take the SAT II in that language. If you don't then they suggest you take a year of a different language. The emphasis currently is on the ability to speak the language fairly fluently. In England many schools require multiple languages as part of their graduation requirement. As for Charlene, I don't understand why she hasn't made more of an effort to learn the language since she has been there close to three years.
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  #395  
Old 06-10-2009, 04:07 AM
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From a South African point of view, European languages in normal government schools are few and far between. Generally (and certainly in Charlene's age group) you had to take English and Afrikaans and as an elective you could take an African language like Zulu or Xhosa and occassionally German was offered.

Mostly private schools or the convents offer French but for a lot of people already taking two languages (which you had to pass to graduate) it wasn't important. (Unless you were going to live in Europe)

IMO and certainly if I was in her position I would have started learning French when I realised that the relationship is looking more serious.

Although I have read some posts that say she has been taking French lessons. (Maybe she isn't academically inclined and is finding it difficult)
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  #396  
Old 06-10-2009, 12:23 PM
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Jacqueline Bouvier grew up in a household where French was spoken exclusively at the dinner table.Her mother Janet had complete mastery of the language from her school days, and of course her father Jack Bouvier was descended from French immigrants.From what I have read of her life, she did not become really fluent until she spent her junior year at the Sorbonne.

I would think a Protestant princess would be unacceptable to Monagasques for several reasons...not the least of which the Constitution requires that the sovereign AND his/her spouse be of the Catholic Faith. Also many of Monaco's cultural events are centered around Catholicism such as the celebration of the Feast of St Devote, it's patroness.
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  #397  
Old 06-10-2009, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaDreamin View Post
I would think a Protestant princess would be unacceptable to Monagasques for several reasons...not the least of which the Constitution requires that the sovereign AND his/her spouse be of the Catholic Faith. Also many of Monaco's cultural events are centered around Catholicism such as the celebration of the Feast of St Devote, it's patroness.
http://http://www.gouv.mc/devwww/www...enDocument&3Fr

Really, where did you get that idea? The constitution mentions that RC is the State Religion but does not seem to specify that either the sovereign or the consort must be RC. I can see the assumption that a member of the Grimaldi dynasty would of course be RC but that does not necessarily mean they must marry a member or a new convert to RC. Caroline afterall is heiress presumptive to the throne and her spouse is most certainly not RC and neither is their only child Princess Alexandra. Should it become necessary for her to succeed I doubt if she would be barred from succession because her husband is Lutheran.

I do agree that there might be some expectation that a spouse would eventually convert, but that could happen after a few years and not necessarily in advance of a wedding. Conversion should afterall be a matter of choice and personal faith not somethng that is forced on anyone.
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  #398  
Old 06-11-2009, 04:28 PM
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Thanks for the info NGalitzine but has there ever been a Protestant Prince or Princess of Monaco?

On the Principality's National Day she would sit in the Cathedral and not receive the Sacrament with her husband? She would be married outside of Mass? She would be exempt from receiving Communion with Albert at Catholic weddings and funerals? At important Feast days?

Do you really believe that this would be acceptable to the Monagasques?

You are right, conversion SHOULD be a matter of faith. But I would think that if Charlene cannot accept the faith of her husband, all his ancestors, and her future subjects she should hightail it back to South Africa and forget about being Princess of Monaco..she'd would not endear herself to them at all...especially being a foreigner as well.

The point is moot anyway...I have serious doubts that Albert intends to ever marry this young woman.
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  #399  
Old 06-11-2009, 05:38 PM
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Excerpt from the Constitution of Monaco, 1962:

Section One: Article 9: La religion catholique, apostolique et romaine est religion d'Etat.
(Catholicism is State religion)



http://www.gouv.mc/devwww/wwwnew.nsf...enDocument&3Fr
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  #400  
Old 06-12-2009, 11:33 AM
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California Dreamin, I think Charlene should just hightail it back to South Africa period!
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