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  #481  
Old 07-31-2007, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaDreamin View Post
Michelle, I agree with you 100%. I am new to these boards and a little baffled by the increasingly strident and negative comments about Charlene.

Regardless of any faux-pas she has committed or any unwise statements in the press-I have not personally read any and I have been following this story almost from the start....
Perhaps this is why you are a little baffled? I respect your opinion, and as Elspeth mentions, you should also respect ours, that we are entitled to have. I think we feel we have provided and backed-up our opinions with many, many examples which Charlene has provided us with. She did not make a good impression to many from the beginning in Turin (she is not a child), of course we also had the benefit of her having gone to the press already where she provided everyone with a play-by-play account of their first date, that Prince Albert was nice enough to ask her on? So along with the way she chose to conduct herself in her first public appearance with Prince Albert in Turin, as well as the inappropriate quips to the press on her first public outing at the Olympics where Prince Albert is a member of the IOC. I would say from watching her & reading her own words in interviews she has chosen to give in the last 18 months, we have not been too far off the mark from our first impressions of her? I guess all of us have different standards of intigrity & grace, even for the most average of people we know, so we at least expect this from someone who has consistantly promoted herself in interviews, quotes & by appearing in public beside a very public Monarch. I do not make much comment in the way of her physical appearance, because this is the least that I am concerned with in people (along as they are respectful). I will say that Charlene has now promoted herself as a model, so she has now invited commentary there as well (IMO)? Some of the least attractive photos & interviews seem difficult to find now for obvious reasons (IMO), but many on this board have seen them when they were current & available. There is still enough published information provided by Charlene if anyone cares to do the research. I think that may be the problem many have with her, she appears to act first & think later. But Albert seems to have done this too? Which is why some seem more concerned than they otherwise might be?
I'm sorry but many who have been familiar with these boards & have been reading all along get tired of rehashing the same stuff over & over. Going back and reading some of these posts might enlighten you as to why we hold the opinions that we do, at least it should be entertaining for you, if you have not done this yet? Regardless, Welcome to the TRF.

"A Picture Paints A Thousand Words"
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  #482  
Old 07-31-2007, 03:35 PM
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I think one of the things new posters are picking up on is the parade of "Charlene is such a total waste of space" comments, which are being repeated over and over and over as though maybe if people say it often enough, Albert will get the hint and dump her.

This thread is about their relationship, it isn't about why or whether she's unfit to be his wife. They aren't married, they aren't engaged, there aren't any clear signs that they're about to become engaged. If nothing is changing in their relationship and people think that everything that needs to be said has already been said, then by all means give this thread a rest for a while until there are developments in the relationship in one direction or another.

But as long as the thread keeps veering off topic into "Charlene is so worthless! she has WRINKLES! look at her SHOULDERS, she must be on STEROIDS! she can't speak FRENCH! she isn't doing CHARITY WORK! she has NO DRESS SENSE! she has the IQ of a MORON! she isn't even a very good SWIMMER!" then newcomers to the thread are bound to be confused about the topic, and there isn't much point being surprised by it.

If the thread stayed on topic, we'd get fewer of these misunderstandings. I think we're all aware that there are a few posters here for whom the only positive thing Charlene could possibly do would be to drop dead or at least leave Monaco and never communicate with Albert again, but that isn't the topic of this thread. The topic is their relationship, not what people wish their relationship was (or wasn't).
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  #483  
Old 07-31-2007, 03:52 PM
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At the same time, however, these comments on Charlene's behaviour are a way of trying to figure out what they have in common and what makes the relationship work.
  #484  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by pinklady1991 View Post
At the same time, however, these comments on Charlene's behaviour are a way of trying to figure out what they have in common and what makes the relationship work.
They obviously do have things in common and Albert wouldn't spend so much time with her if she was as stupid as you think she is.
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  #485  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by pinklady1991 View Post
At the same time, however, these comments on Charlene's behaviour are a way of trying to figure out what they have in common and what makes the relationship work.
That's a good point Pink. Like for example Gala magazine (can someone get their hands on it?) is reporting that Albert left right after the ball with a friend for a vacation in an undisclosed place while Charlene took a vacation in St. Tropez. Interesting to me -what was the trip? and why is she not with him and why is she vacationing in St. Tropez? I'm getting this second hand so if anyone has the mag and can give it to us straight from the source that would be helpful!
  #486  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by pinklady1991 View Post
At the same time, however, these comments on Charlene's behaviour are a way of trying to figure out what they have in common and what makes the relationship work.
I'd be more prepared to accept that if these comments were part of more extensive posts about the relationship, but they don't seem to be. A lot of them are just outright venom on the subject of Charlene's perceived utter worthlessness.

Posts full of "God, would you LOOK at her? What a disgrace she is with those shoulders and those wrinkles and that awful dress!" "Yeah, just when you think she couldn't possibly get any worse, she gets worse, har har," and on and on in that vein, with people falling over each other to pour scorn and contempt and to jeer at her every time she does anything, are just an excuse to unload on Charlene. We've been getting more and more complaints about the tone of this thread and other threads about Albert and Charlene, as well as the way Charlene's perceived failings are finding their way into threads about other Monaco royals and their friends and family, and they're all saying the same thing: that there's a core of dedicated Charlene haters who are doing nothing but hating Charlene and trying to take over thread after thread to do it.

These posts aren't about the relationship between Charlene and Albert or they'd include some stuff about - you know - the relationship between Charlene and Albert. They're just about being bitchy and venomous about Charlene. And that's not something we're particularly interested in having continue, just so you know. The forum moderators have been issuing one warning after another, all of which have been ignored by people intent on pursuing their vendetta at the expense of the forum as a whole. Please don't get the mistaken impression that you can ignore this one.
  #487  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I'd be more prepared to accept that if these comments were part of more extensive posts about the relationship, but they don't seem to be. A lot of them are just outright venom on the subject of Charlene's perceived utter worthlessness.

Posts full of "God, would you LOOK at her? What a disgrace she is with those shoulders and those wrinkles and that awful dress!" "Yeah, just when you think she couldn't possibly get any worse, she gets worse, har har," and on and on in that vein, with people falling over each other to pour scorn and contempt and to jeer at her every time she does anything, are just an excuse to unload on Charlene. We've been getting more and more complaints about the tone of this thread and other threads about Albert and Charlene, as well as the way Charlene's perceived failings are finding their way into threads about other Monaco royals and their friends and family, and they're all saying the same thing: that there's a core of dedicated Charlene haters who are doing nothing but hating Charlene and trying to take over thread after thread to do it.

These posts aren't about the relationship between Charlene and Albert or they'd include some stuff about - you know - the relationship between Charlene and Albert. They're just about being bitchy and venomous about Charlene. And that's not something we're particularly interested in having continue, just so you know. The forum moderators have been issuing one warning after another, all of which have been ignored by people intent on pursuing their vendetta at the expense of the forum as a whole. Please don't get the mistaken impression that you can ignore this one.

Elspeth-thanks so much for this point. I thought I was the only one who felt this way, but I am relieved to see that I am not alone. I couldn't agree more with everything you said!
  #488  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I think one of the things new posters are picking up on is the parade of "Charlene is such a total waste of space" comments, which are being repeated over and over and over as though maybe if people say it often enough, Albert will get the hint and dump her.

This thread is about their relationship, it isn't about why or whether she's unfit to be his wife. They aren't married, they aren't engaged, there aren't any clear signs that they're about to become engaged. If nothing is changing in their relationship and people think that everything that needs to be said has already been said, then by all means give this thread a rest for a while until there are developments in the relationship in one direction or another.

But as long as the thread keeps veering off topic into "Charlene is so worthless! she has WRINKLES! look at her SHOULDERS, she must be on STEROIDS! she can't speak FRENCH! she isn't doing CHARITY WORK! she has NO DRESS SENSE! she has the IQ of a MORON! she isn't even a very good SWIMMER!" then newcomers to the thread are bound to be confused about the topic, and there isn't much point being surprised by it.

If the thread stayed on topic, we'd get fewer of these misunderstandings. I think we're all aware that there are a few posters here for whom the only positive thing Charlene could possibly do would be to drop dead or at least leave Monaco and never communicate with Albert again, but that isn't the topic of this thread. The topic is their relationship, not what people wish their relationship was (or wasn't).
Elspeth, I agree with much you have said, I don't argue that part of your first paragraph is probably why many post, but we are constantly getting the remark such as, "I am new - I don't know why you hold the opinions that you do!" As if we haven't provided enough examples ad nauseam, that have validated them. We wouldn't have to rehash everything over & over, if people would bother to read a little & inform themselves before raising their same questions? Your posts mentions people should respect other peoples opinions. I always provide reason to my opinion, but often do not see the people who oppose our comments, provide any reason for theirs? Which is their perogative, but you can see why their is confusion among many? I agree, for me, I see no reason for comments regarding her large shoulders, etc...? That is nothing she can help. But I do think I should feel free to comment on her behaviour? As well as what she might bring to Monaco, besides cookies? She seems to be campaigning for the job? (hence, all the interviews & photo spreads) And as I say, I think a lot of what is said would be unfair if she had not seeked the attention herself, because of it she has offered herself up and invited public commentary. What part of their relationship are we to talk about except for what they provide us with? This is not the current events thread. I agree I don't think people should bash Charlene for no reason, but more often than not we provide it. I do agree, there is little reason to continue to comment, we are all getting rather bored I think.
  #489  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by michelle View Post
They obviously do have things in common and Albert wouldn't spend so much time with her if she was as stupid as you think she is.
I think there are those of us interested in more than what she wore to the ball and are trying to understand what it is we see. Some of us use more than pictures like interviews she's given and statements he has made to the press to form our opinions. Having said that, pictures can project at thousand words and when you combine them with things the individuals have said, add in human nature, many of us find their relationship a bit odd. Lastly, I also have to say that the Pink is not a poster I've seen refer or imply that Charlene is stupid. JMO
  #490  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by michelle View Post
They obviously do have things in common and Albert wouldn't spend so much time with her if she was as stupid as you think she is.
That is true, I think many of us are guessing the same thing that he has had in common with the other woman that he has dated, and that we know about. I think it is perhaps Albert who might hold that attribute, which is why many are a bit worried?
  #491  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by hibou View Post
I think there are those of us interested in more than what she wore to the ball and are trying to understand what it is we see. Some of us use more than pictures like interviews she's given and statements he has made to the press to form our opinions. Having said that, pictures can project at thousand words and when you combine them with things the individuals have said, add in human nature, many of us find their relationship a bit odd. Lastly, I also have to say that the Pink is not a poster I've seen refer or imply that Charlene is stupid. JMO
So do I, I say sometimes I'm not interested in dresses, shoulders and so on, I have friends in Monaco, I'm here sometimes and i have to say that I'm interested in monegasque current life, current affairs and how this country with his ruler will go on... I have respect for people who are working for "Monaco dream" going on... I have respect for people who are working around National council, around Palace, around SBM, I have respect for Albert II when he made his crowning speech ( i have a dream...)... I hoped something new here. I have respect for some members of Grimaldi 's family who are using their fame for fighting against aids or poverty.
But i'm not dazzled by Cinderella's stories or tabloids blabs. I'm trying to look forward.
  #492  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:52 PM
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My concern is that I have spent three mos here lurking and reading all existing threads and I have not found ONE rational reason why some people feel this girl is unqualified to become the next Princess.

So when posters tell us to "go and read the threads" as if that is some type of irrefutable evidence it does become confusing. Because the fact is the only place, and I do mean THE ONLY PLACE that I have read disapproval of and downright animosity toward the relationship of PA and CW is right here on TRF.

I read that we all have different standards of grace and dignity and that is no doubt true. But by all accounts the Princesses Stephanie and Caroline are highly thought of on this board...yet between them these two have joined the circus, carried on affairs with married men, borne children out of wedlock, and been pregnant at the altar and have been seen in various states of undress with cigarettes dangling from their mouths. Yet Charlene Wittstock of South Africa is unfit to be Prince Albert's Princess because she spoke to the Press or behaved indiscreetly earlier in their relationship? This same Prince who, by the way, has flipped off photographers and has two illegitimate children by different women?

What is wrong with this picture folks?

All I am saying is give the young lady and chance, and try to be fair. That's all!
  #493  
Old 07-31-2007, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by sandsla View Post
Elspeth, I agree with much you have said, I don't argue that part of your first paragraph is probably why many post, but we are constantly getting the remark such as, "I am new - I don't know why you hold the opinions that you do!" As if we haven't provided enough examples ad nauseam, that have validated them. We wouldn't have to rehash everything over & over, if people would bother to read a little & inform themselves before raising their same questions? Your posts mentions people should respect other peoples opinions. I always provide reason to my opinion, but often do not see the people who oppose our comments, provide any reason for theirs? Which is their perogative, but you can see why their is confusion among many? I agree, for me, I see no reason for comments regarding her large shoulders, etc...? That is nothing she can help. But I do think I should feel free to comment on her behaviour? As well as what she might bring to Monaco, besides cookies? She seems to be campaigning for the job? (hence, all the interviews & photo spreads) And as I say, I think a lot of what is said would be unfair if she had not seeked the attention herself, because of it she has offered herself up and invited public commentary. What part of their relationship are we to talk about except for what they provide us with? This is not the current events thread. I agree I don't think people should bash Charlene for no reason, but more often than not we provide it. I do agree, there is little reason to continue to comment, we are all getting rather bored I think.

What do you mean "seems to be campaigning for the job?" Please forgive if I sound obtuse...she has posed for some photos and given one or two ill advised interviews over a year ago?

Lady Diana Spencer wasnt "campaigning for the job" when she led Prince Charles to believe before her marriage that she was wild about country living and shooting? Or when she told him that he was a lonely man who needes someone "look after him?"

I am willing to bet that many of the young women who are married to the current crop of Crown Princes in some way or another campaigned for the "job".

What is important to me at least is what happens after they GET the job, and how they fulfill their role.
  #494  
Old 07-31-2007, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by michelle View Post
They obviously do have things in common and Albert wouldn't spend so much time with her if she was as stupid as you think she is.
Why the personal attack? I never said she was stupid; they just seem mismatched in our opinions. <Removed rude remark/Mandy>
  #495  
Old 07-31-2007, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sandsla View Post
Elspeth, I agree with much you have said, I don't argue that part of your first paragraph is probably why many post, but we are constantly getting the remark such as, "I am new - I don't know why you hold the opinions that you do!" As if we haven't provided enough examples ad nauseam, that have validated them. We wouldn't have to rehash everything over & over, if people would bother to read a little & inform themselves before raising their same questions?
Well, unfortunately, this is just one of the things that comes with the territory of a large, open-access forum like this one. You're going to get people who are more knowledgeable and people who are somewhat less knowledgeable, and sometimes the former group has to take the time to educate the latter, even if it gets boring. Having said that, I'm not suggesting that you waste large amounts of time giving chapter and verse to people who flat refuse to do any research themselves, but it's more helpful to point the newcomers to actual posts and threads or give a few examples than to just say "go away and read up about it yourself" because the chances are that the amount of information out there is rather daunting. Some of the newcomers aren't completely ignorant; they've read magazine articles, they've looked at some photos, they'll probably have read some stuff online, and I'm sure they'll be grateful for tips and hints about where to find yet more information. We'd really like to avoid the perception that certain threads are reserved for small groups of posters and that people with contrary opinions or people just learning about things are unwelcome there.

It also doesn't hurt to bear in mind that there are long-term and highly knowledgeable posters who've also been following Albert's exploits for years and have come to a different conclusion. So newer posters with less knowledge can be forgiven for being a bit confused about things and wondering why people on both sides have ended up with the opinion they currently hold.

Quote:
Your posts mentions people should respect other peoples opinions. I always provide reason to my opinion, but often do not see the people who oppose our comments, provide any reason for theirs? Which is their perogative, but you can see why their is confusion among many? I agree, for me, I see no reason for comments regarding her large shoulders, etc...? That is nothing she can help. But I do think I should feel free to comment on her behaviour?
Sure, bearing in mind the topic of the thread and the rules we have about bashing and about speculation. As I hope you can see, criticism is perfectly OK as long as it doesn't descend into gratuitous insult and bashing just for the sake of it.

Quote:
As well as what she might bring to Monaco, besides cookies? She seems to be campaigning for the job? (hence, all the interviews & photo spreads) And as I say, I think a lot of what is said would be unfair if she had not seeked the attention herself, because of it she has offered herself up and invited public commentary.
Erm, cookies?

As for campaigning for the job, again, that seems to be a matter of opinion. She's talked to the press (or at least her family has) and isn't exactly camera-shy, but apparently she hasn't taken any steps to learn French or to find out about the nuts-and-bolts work that Albert does as Ruling Prince, which would seem to me to be obvious things a person should be doing if she's trying to make herself fit to be his consort. She may be in the exact position she wants to be in, and the chances are that she's in the position that Albert wants her to be in at least for the present, because he's the one calling the shots (at least, I assume he is, what with being a Ruling Prince and all). I'm sure other people will have different opinions, and all these opinions are what we're looking for in this thread.

Quote:
What part of their relationship are we to talk about except for what they provide us with? This is not the current events thread. I agree I don't think people should bash Charlene for no reason, but more often than not we provide it. I do agree, there is little reason to continue to comment, we are all getting rather bored I think.
I think we went through this last year, that people are just getting frustrated because this relationship appears to be going nowhere. And we seem to have about equal numbers of people wanting to see them engaged and people wanting to see them break up, to say nothing of people wondering what on earth Albert has in mind for the future if he doesn't get married sooner rather than later. However, the main things we're looking to avoid here are people getting carried away with her perceived unsuitability to be the next Princess of Monaco (which can wait till he actually proposes), criticism that descends into bashing and especially into libel, too much speculation about what Albert's family thinks of her if they haven't actually said anything on the subject, and having the frustration with this stalled relationship spilling over into threads about other people.

Does any of that sound too unreasonable to live with?
  #496  
Old 07-31-2007, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by pinklady1991 View Post
Why the personal attack? I never said she was stupid; they just seem mismatched in our opinions. <Removed rude remark/Mandy>
Pinklady saying that you think they seem to be MISMATCHED is perfectly fine to me. You have the right! What I find vaguely insulting is to be told to "go back and read the threads" as if that will provide some type of enlightenment because frankly it does not. It's just the same old "lacks grace and dignity" and tired comparison's to Princess Grace based on the nothing but photos and press interviews that are highly subjective and open to many different interpretations.

For example, the photo that someone very kindly put up here to "prove" that CW was seen picking food from her teeth. Uh...it didn't look that way at all to me! It seemed to be some sort of private joke between she and PA, who by the way had HIS fingers against his teeth too!

I have read comments about her "tacky" modeling photos. Okay, we don't all like the same things. I saw nothing wrong with the photos, unless they were for Hustler Mag or something. Yet people are insisting that we "go back and read the threads" to see this kind of proof that she is unworthy.

And then there is her "lack of education". Since when does not having a degree or being a dropout disqualify a person from being a Princess? ?Cause if that's the case we would not have had the late Diana Spencer as Princess of Wales!

I don't get it.
  #497  
Old 07-31-2007, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
................
I think we went through this last year, that people are just getting frustrated because this relationship appears to be going nowhere. And we seem to have about equal numbers of people wanting to see them engaged and people wanting to see them break up, to say nothing of people wondering what on earth Albert has in mind for the future if he doesn't get married sooner rather than later. However, the main things we're looking to avoid here are people getting carried away with her perceived unsuitability to be the next Princess of Monaco (which can wait till he actually proposes), criticism that descends into bashing and especially into libel, too much speculation about what Albert's family thinks of her if they haven't actually said anything on the subject, and having the frustration with this stalled relationship spilling over into threads about other people.
Does any of that sound too unreasonable to live with?
Elspeth, my english is not fluent, so hope you'll be OK with i understood... because somthing is new in medias who aren't tabloids... and some posters said it before even if they were ironicals. here's some links;
Monaco in a mood over absent Albert - Times Online
L'intermittent du Rocher
Point de Vue *.:.* Archive *n3078
the last thread is about caroline ... and when you know that Point de vue is used to be closed with royals... you are wondering
  #498  
Old 07-31-2007, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by pinklady1991 View Post
Why the personal attack? I never said she was stupid; they just seem mismatched in our opinions. <Removed rude remark/Mandy>
I don't think my sister wanted to attack anyone personally. But people, not you personally, just people around here ( some) in general go on and on about Charlene beeing inappropriate or dumb , hence the 'stupid' michelle used.

About Albert and Charlene beeing mismatched or their relationship odd: well, that's highly subjective as a point of view and not everyone has to agree. Plus , and I'm fully aware of how out of place this sounds, but : at the end of the day it's none of our business.
  #499  
Old 07-31-2007, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaDreamin View Post
My concern is that I have spent three mos here lurking and reading all existing threads and I have not found ONE rational reason why some people feel this girl is unqualified to become the next Princess.

So when posters tell us to "go and read the threads" as if that is some type of irrefutable evidence it does become confusing. Because the fact is the only place, and I do mean THE ONLY PLACE that I have read disapproval of and downright animosity toward the relationship of PA and CW is right here on TRF.

I read that we all have different standards of grace and dignity and that is no doubt true. But by all accounts the Princesses Stephanie and Caroline are highly thought of on this board...yet between them these two have joined the circus, carried on affairs with married men, borne children out of wedlock, and been pregnant at the altar and have been seen in various states of undress with cigarettes dangling from their mouths. Yet Charlene Wittstock of South Africa is unfit to be Prince Albert's Princess because she spoke to the Press or behaved indiscreetly earlier in their relationship? This same Prince who, by the way, has flipped off photographers and has two illegitimate children by different women?

What is wrong with this picture folks?


All I am saying is give the young lady and chance, and try to be fair. That's all!

And yes, I'm on the same page here !
  #500  
Old 07-31-2007, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by lilae View Post
Elspeth, my english is not fluent, so hope you'll be OK with i understood... because somthing is new in medias who aren't tabloids... and some posters said it before even if they were ironicals. here's some links;
Monaco in a mood over absent Albert - Times Online
L'intermittent du Rocher
Point de Vue *.:.* Archive *n3078
the last thread is about caroline ... and when you know that Point de vue is used to be closed with royals... you are wondering
These articles are about a much wider issue than just his relationship with Charlene, and I'm not sure there's an appropriate thread to discuss it at the moment. I'll see what the longer-term Monaco moderators think, but this may be a good topic for a new thread.
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