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  #381  
Old 07-24-2007, 02:07 PM
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[ i completly agree with you if she get preganant he will have to marry her because he have openly take her out, and been on the cover of every magazine with him. i think this might be her ticket of getting him to marry her. ]
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  #382  
Old 07-24-2007, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amad1108 View Post
if albert wanted to get married, he should have ten years ago, if he want to get marry to charlene so he could get a heir, then he is doing it for the wrong choice, and it will end in a messing divorce for everyone, to avoid all this mess including what the media will do to destroy his image, he should just pass the crown to his sister,caroline.
p.s will every one please stop compare charlene to grace, charlene will never be our grace no one else could.
What's with the 'Caroline for sovereign" these days? She might be a fine first lady, but that doesn't make her a fine sovereign. JMO.

<removed response to deleted post - tbhrc>
Quote:
Originally Posted by hibou View Post
As I mentioned in my earlier post (and it's not a question of comparing Charlene to Grace) what have we seen so far of Charlene (and not just the event photos) that would give us the impression that she will help him with his agenda for Monaco now that he has had a jolt of reality as paca pointed out in her post. I'd love to hear opinions on this because while Grace was the velvet glove to Rainier's toughness. Other wives of leaders have helped or hindered their spouses in the forum of public opinion by either helping their agendas or not. So what have we seen about Charlene that would make us believe it is Albert and not the position (being in love with the idea of being a princess as opposed to the hard work it requires) that Charlene projects?

I should add that when he went to the North Pole with Annabelle Bond I thought wow she is a very intelligent, accomplished women who might be someone that would be a huge help to Albert in two areas business and ecology/global warming. She could have helped him with his agenda. The same idea with Alicia with her economics background. So what does Charlene have?
So far (IMO) Charlene hasn't brought anything useful to Monaco. Massive amounts of tabloid coverage (something that Albert alledgedly hates, so no benefits there), ermm, world fame, connections and acquaintances for herself (no help there either), a certain cheapness and dirtyness (JMO! Don't kill me!) (no help there). She doesn't make Albert look good, he lookes a lot better on his own, both literally and figuratively speaking. Unless he really loves her (but that is not what he is radiating), I don't see much benefit from their relation not even as a distraction. But that's JMO. Interesting question btw, I'm curious as to what others come up with.

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  #383  
Old 07-24-2007, 07:42 PM
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Lack of a high school diploma didnt seem to hold back the "sainted" Diana. She dropped out at 16, did a few odd jobs, and had she not married "up" I doubt if any of us would ever have heard of her. People can rise to the occassion when responsibility is thrust upon them. If he does eventually decide that she is the one she may well surprise us all.
I recall reading a comment from Barbara Walters when she interviewed Grace about 6 years after her marriage, "you feel his presence in every corner of Monaco, you do not feel the presence of the princess as much". Reference "Grace of Moaco" by Steven Englund, p252.
  #384  
Old 07-24-2007, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Lack of a high school diploma didnt seem to hold back the "sainted" Diana. She dropped out at 16, did a few odd jobs, and had she not married "up" I doubt if any of us would ever have heard of her. People can rise to the occassion when responsibility is thrust upon them. If he does eventually decide that she is the one she may well surprise us all.
I recall reading a comment from Barbara Walters when she interviewed Grace about 6 years after her marriage, "you feel his presence in every corner of Monaco, you do not feel the presence of the princess as much". Reference "Grace of Moaco" by Steven Englund, p252.
It's not about the lack of education if has more to do with what she has done with her life after the Olympics. Diana went to a "finishing" school, and held a job as a nanny and was an aide at a preschool. She was doing things with her life. She also was born into wealth. she was also only 19. Charlene is 29. Huge difference. Many Olympians at least take college courses when they can. Many of them are involved in charities not to mention trying for those important corporate sponsorships either to help them continue training or as a spokes person. I can not think of one thing Charlene has done in the last seven years. If anyone can tell me please do. What are her interests besides swimming and Albert? As for Diana marrying up, her bloodlines were actually more royal than the House of Windsor as far as that goes. Character also is important and I am not getting a favorable impression of Charlene based on her own comments from interviews. Not just photo ops. But we are off topic so to get back on topic I will indeed be surprised if she turns out differently

Again circling back on topic what help will she be to Albert? How has she been of support to him besides being his traveling companion? What causes does she champion? Her Paris Match interview pretty much summed it all up. Yes people can rise to the occasion as Diana did with her charity work but she also almost caused the end of the monarchy in Britain. Just a thought.
  #385  
Old 07-25-2007, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Lack of a high school diploma didnt seem to hold back the "sainted" Diana. She dropped out at 16, did a few odd jobs, and had she not married "up" I doubt if any of us would ever have heard of her. People can rise to the occassion when responsibility is thrust upon them. If he does eventually decide that she is the one she may well surprise us all.
I recall reading a comment from Barbara Walters when she interviewed Grace about 6 years after her marriage, "you feel his presence in every corner of Monaco, you do not feel the presence of the princess as much". Reference "Grace of Moaco" by Steven Englund, p252.
Diana was held back by the lack of this diploma in many ways that later reflected in her life.She drew to her people who could identify with her problems[sob sisters and agony aunts] and lack of education but I did not see her making an impact on the educated, erudite, and cultured as Jackie Kennedy or Princess Grace did.
Certainly her charity work was formidable but her lack of education was blatant and embarrassing in that she never knew when to let her husband shine and when to be the star herself. Diana was a high mimetically tragically flawed heroine and had she been just a bit more educated she would have known better and then 'truly' risen to the occasion by probably and possibly still being here on the planet.I feel you are over idealizing a mediocre girl who had exceptional circumstances and was not exceptionally literate but popular with the masses for this possible reason among others.
There is a difference between a bottle top and a diamond.I do not feel Charlene can surprise or rise to the occasion when she has not the aristocratic backround of Diana who was to the manor born and already quasi royalty which gave her an edge in how to communicate. The globalized world is "more educated " than before.... and Charlene for all the goodness her heart may have does not know the difference between T.S.Eliot and Dylan Thomas poetically speaking. That is that one is dialectical and the other empirical.Pa needs a wife to give him the "edge" not just sustain his status. The future of Monaco is not about the aleatory surprises of over idealizing a not exceptional young lady. [others included]The future of Monaco is a woman who has exceptional capabilities pragamatically speaking..That will sustain the future.....and give Monaco a place in the sun again...JMO.
  #386  
Old 07-25-2007, 12:29 AM
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Please get back on topic. This thread is not to compare Charlene to Grace, Diana, Caroline, Stephanie, etc. Furthermore, this thread is not to compare Albert & Charlene's relationship to any other relationship that Albert or Charlene have had.

If the rules are not followed then this thread will be closed.
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  #387  
Old 07-25-2007, 08:53 AM
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Charlene does not have the same grace as some others he might be dating. I am reminded of all the princes of Europe who were dating beautiful models and high-profile celebrity types who then broke off long dating spells and fell in love with the most unexpected but very intelligent life partners, some from very unusual corners of the globe or of town (Norway!). But they were drawn to the ability to communicate their life's dreams and ambitions with these intelligent women .. who subsequently have given them love and children ... maybe CW is someone he wishes to build something with but still has doubts because that part of his soul is still empty when he is with her .. he might end a long-term dating spell with her ... and then meet the most wonderful life partner in the most unexpected way !!! But right under his nose! :o)

R.
  #388  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:09 AM
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Since this thread is about Albert and Charlene I think we are all asking the same questions. The age gap leads one to wonder what they have in common? While they share Olympic experiences, that is not enough to hold a relationship together. It is unfortunate but this will not be your average marriage as a job title comes with it and can never be separated from the marriage. Education is vital to the world stage as Jaya pointed out so beautifully in her post among other things she pointed out so well I might add.

A shared passion for Monaco and it's people. A passion to learn, and a passion to share his agenda. She is not just there to have a kid and then go away. I have not seen any personal growth in this women or any rising to the occasion in the last year and a half we have seen her. I have seen her paraded, photographed, reported to be training for the Olympics when it is obvious that she is not, only to have her pop up again and called a model. Who is this woman that may one day be Princess of Monaco? I know mods don't like us to compare her to anyone but I can't help myself, a comparison to Diana is inevitable and so will the outcome should Charlene become Princess. I do not see a healthy relationship in the body language of these two and again one can not help but compare to other royals with girlfriends. Many of us are seeing the same thing. Something isn't right. Sorry mods I am trying to stay within the guidelines and yet respond to other posters. I would love to hear others opinions on this relationship.
  #389  
Old 07-25-2007, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by rosalee View Post
Charlene does not have the same grace as some others he might be dating. I am reminded of all the princes of Europe who were dating beautiful models and high-profile celebrity types who then broke off long dating spells and fell in love with the most unexpected but very intelligent life partners, some from very unusual corners of the globe or of town (Norway!). But they were drawn to the ability to communicate their life's dreams and ambitions with these intelligent women .. who subsequently have given them love and children ... maybe CW is someone he wishes to build something with but still has doubts because that part of his soul is still empty when he is with her .. he might end a long-term dating spell with her ... and then meet the most wonderful life partner in the most unexpected way !!! But right under his nose! :o)

R.
Albert may wish to build a relationship with Charlene but I can not at this point see how. I do agree with everything else you have said. Most importantly he needs, as he has done in the past, to keep his new love interest hidden until he is sure. There were many missteps with Charlene and it became apparently early on that she was not up to the task. Let us hope that he does indeed find a truly wonderful life partner that supports his passions and the key word here is partner. I have found that when people stop looking for that special someone they often find them unexpectedly. I think if Albert focuses on the needs of Monaco right now things will fall into place. JMO
  #390  
Old 07-25-2007, 11:27 AM
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Hibou and Jaya, thanks for your posts 386 and 387, I found your arguments and analyses quite brilliant, putting into perspective what a future Princess of Monaco should be like, in light of what other princesses are or have been. I am sorry comparisons shouldn't be made, they are actually quite pedagogical in getting a point across. Anyway, it was the first time I had read anything illuminating about the doubts this relationship has been raising as to the future of Monaco, and the article in Times Online from the other thread corroborates the reasons for the pervasive malaise. I wonder how much criticism Albert can tolerate, I understand his father didn't tolerate much, but this comment should be for the thread on Albert. Sometimes, it's hard to keep things separated...
  #391  
Old 07-25-2007, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hibou View Post
Albert may wish to build a relationship with Charlene but I can not at this point see how. I do agree with everything else you have said. Most importantly he needs, as he has done in the past, to keep his new love interest hidden until he is sure. There were many missteps with Charlene and it became apparently early on that she was not up to the task. Let us hope that he does indeed find a truly wonderful life partner that supports his passions and the key word here is partner. I have found that when people stop looking for that special someone they often find them unexpectedly. I think if Albert focuses on the needs of Monaco right now things will fall into place. JMO
Spot on...
I think Albert is trying too hard and Charlene is just a distraction from what he needs to do for his country and its citizens. It seems to me that when Charlene is around, Albert's focus is everywhere but where it should be. What Albert needs (and of course this is only my opinion) is someone who can help him focus...someone who understands when he needs to deal with government and other issues and when he needs to relax and recharge. Unfortunately, I think Charlene only sees the "fun" side and because she doesn't understand -- or doesn't want to understand -- the "work" side, she encourages Albert to behave as he did when his father was there to make sure everything ran well.
  #392  
Old 07-25-2007, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hibou View Post
Since this thread is about Albert and Charlene I think we are all asking the same questions. The age gap leads one to wonder what they have in common? While they share Olympic experiences, that is not enough to hold a relationship together. It is unfortunate but this will not be your average marriage as a job title comes with it and can never be separated from the marriage. Education is vital to the world stage as Jaya pointed out so beautifully in her post among other things she pointed out so well I might add.

A shared passion for Monaco and it's people. A passion to learn, and a passion to share his agenda. She is not just there to have a kid and then go away. I have not seen any personal growth in this women or any rising to the occasion in the last year and a half we have seen her. I have seen her paraded, photographed, reported to be training for the Olympics when it is obvious that she is not, only to have her pop up again and called a model. Who is this woman that may one day be Princess of Monaco? I know mods don't like us to compare her to anyone but I can't help myself, a comparison to Diana is inevitable and so will the outcome should Charlene become Princess. I do not see a healthy relationship in the body language of these two and again one can not help but compare to other royals with girlfriends. Many of us are seeing the same thing. Something isn't right. Sorry mods I am trying to stay within the guidelines and yet respond to other posters. I would love to hear others opinions on this relationship.
It is my opinion imo that your post is alluding to fact that we are all searching for the "substance" in this relationship and cannot seem to pinpoint it yet.
thanks hibou another fantastic post
  #393  
Old 07-25-2007, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by pinklady1991 View Post
Spot on...
I think Albert is trying too hard and Charlene is just a distraction from what he needs to do for his country and its citizens. It seems to me that when Charlene is around, Albert's focus is everywhere but where it should be. What Albert needs (and of course this is only my opinion) is someone who can help him focus...someone who understands when he needs to deal with government and other issues and when he needs to relax and recharge. Unfortunately, I think Charlene only sees the "fun" side and because she doesn't understand -- or doesn't want to understand -- the "work" side, she encourages Albert to behave as he did when his father was there to make sure everything ran well.
You are right, Albert needs a woman, who knows how to help him in being the man he needs to be in his position, to bring out the best in him - He is the Monarch, instead of choosing women who seem to be overly enamored and starved for attention. Great Posts by Jaya & Hibou. Jaya, I could not agree with you more about Diana. I just wanted to point out that people in England can choose to finish school around 16? I can't remember if it's A Levels & you can choose to go on to O levels, or the other way around? I believe this is what Diana did or rather didn't do? I don't think she dropped out, she just did not continue on? Maybe one of our posters in England can clear this up? Regardless, Diana did suffer from not being more educated and even more so, for her lack of maturity, which I believe it took her until she was 30 yrs of age, to grow up some, even in her position (IMO). In an unflattering interview she gave she indeed told how she aspired to the position she ended up in, her ignorance was evident whatever the cause. I am not comparing Diana to anyone, but I use her as an example, only to make a point. Uma Thurman dropped out of school at 15 to model, but taking her parents into consideration, I am sure she is probably quite intellegent. I "graduated"`from school at an earlier age than most, because I worked hard to do that. Also, I know many people who do not hold formal degrees, but have taken the time to educate themselves. I think we can offer up many examples of CEOs who quit college to start their own successful companies. Even though I think a formal education can only be a benefit, there are many ways to educate oneself and to expand & evolve as everyone should continue to do for the length of their life.

My point is Charlene does not appear to have taken advantage of any measures to advance herself intellectually or emotionally in anyway, that might have prepared her for any role in life that would have required her to do so. At the very least I think Albert's wife's position requires a level of maturity & sincerity that does not seem evident in Charlene. She seems to believe she can survive as a type of escort service? (imo) I hope Albert wants more than this for himself & Monaco?

Cote, I hope you reappear for the Red Cross Ball or anytime? You are missed by many, I think there are a lot of us who enjoy your insight!

Jaya, you are exactly right - I too believe it is a lack of substance that is missing!
NotAPrentender, your post below is well put!
  #394  
Old 07-25-2007, 04:42 PM
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Sandsla, very interesting, insigthful post. (And I persist in liking comparisons ! )Thanks !
  #395  
Old 07-25-2007, 05:21 PM
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It does make one wonder

It does make one wonder what their private conversations consist of.

Charlene does not appear to be driven by altruistic motives in advancing any charitable causes. I do know many couples who have met on the "charity circuit" and found mutual happiness born of a love to "do good" with the gifts that circumstance has granted them. Charlene certainly does not appear to have any particular drive to "do good" either for others or even in her own chosen sport.

Albert, while definitely fun-loving and a party kinda guy, does have a public-minded bent. Certainly it was thrust upon him by virtue of his birth and position, but he does put himself into the task of fulfilling the adage "To whomsover much has been given, from him much will be required."

Put more bluntly, it is a matter of self-discipline. While Albert has had some failings in that regard, by and large his life is governed by self-discipline. Charlene, on the other hand, appear to have little and is governed by self-love and self-aggrandizement.

And that appears to be a mismatch. An entertaining one for the parties in the interim, a-la "opposites attract," but in the long run is generally a recipe for heartbreak.
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  #396  
Old 07-25-2007, 07:03 PM
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calling and covenant

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandsla View Post
You are right, Albert needs a woman, who knows how to help him in being the man he needs to be in his position, to bring out the best in him - He is the Monarch, instead of choosing women who seem to be overly enamored and starved for attention. Great Posts by Jaya & Hibou. Jaya, I could not agree with you more about Diana. I just wanted to point out that people in England can choose to finish school around 16? I can't remember if it's A Levels & you can choose to go on to O levels, or the other way around? I believe this is what Diana did or rather didn't do? I don't think she dropped out, she just did not continue on? Maybe one of our posters in England can clear this up? Regardless, Diana did suffer from not being more educated and even more so, for her lack of maturity, which I believe it took her until she was 30 yrs of age, to grow up some, even in her position (IMO). In an unflattering interview she gave she indeed told how she aspired to the position she ended up in, her ignorance was evident whatever the cause. I am not comparing Diana to anyone, but I use her as an example, only to make a point. Uma Thurman dropped out of school at 15 to model, but taking her parents into consideration, I am sure she is probably quite intellegent. I "graduated"`from school at an earlier age than most, because I worked hard to do that. Also, I know many people who do not hold formal degrees, but have taken the time to educate themselves. I think we can offer up many examples of CEOs who quit college to start their own successful companies. Even though I think a formal education can only be a benefit, there are many ways to educate oneself and to expand & evolve as everyone should continue to do for the length of their life.

My point is Charlene does not appear to have taken advantage of any measures to advance herself intellectually or emotionally in anyway, that might have prepared her for any role in life that would have required her to do so. At the very least I think Albert's wife's position requires a level of maturity & sincerity that does not seem evident in Charlene. She seems to believe she can survive as a type of escort service? (imo) I hope Albert wants more than this for himself & Monaco?

Cote, I hope you reappear for the Red Cross Ball or anytime? You are missed by many, I think there are a lot of us who enjoy your insight!

Jaya, you are exactly right - I too believe it is a lack of substance that is missing!
NotAPrentender, your post below is well put!
Hello sandsla,
I found your post nothing less than brilliant as usual.
I maybe incorrect but I think we are all seeing that the "calling" of being "royal" or "purple" is not apparent in Charlene for some reason which I or you must pinpoint.For this is no mere job but a "calling" as the sovereign does not retire.Once the "calling" has been established the marriage is then a covenant as is the position of the purple mantle royalty ascribed to you.
imo I feel Charlene does not understand these deeper reasons about her impending position and the ramifications.Otherwise we probably would have seen a more serious side to her that "intends"just a bit better.I would have liked a bit more mystery myself in this relationship but that is moi JMO
  #397  
Old 07-25-2007, 07:36 PM
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I know its like beating a dead horse, but I still insist that people are making an awful lot of judgements about a person we truly know very little about. Factually, all we seem to know is that she is South African, a non-aristocrat, a former Olympic swimmer, blonde and rather beautiful and that she is currently dating the Prince of Monaco.

At this stage of the game I don't think she has to bring anything to Monaco or to anyone else. She is a private individual with no responsibility to anyone other than herself. Her public appearances are at the behest of the Prince as his date, not in an official role as finace or consort. I think judgements should wait until she has an official role in the principality, and even then perhaps over a period of years.

While couples ideally should be closer in social, economic, educational and age, there are always exceptions that work and a lot of examples where having everything in common failed to keep a couple together.

A current royal couple with a large age gap would be TRH the Duke and Duchess of Braganca. They married in May 1995 when he was 50 and Isabel de Heredia was 29. 12 years and 3 children later they seem to be doing well.

JMO, but then I'm the kind of guy who prefers to build people up than to tear them down.
  #398  
Old 07-25-2007, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I know its like beating a dead horse, but I still insist that people are making an awful lot of judgements about a person we truly know very little about. Factually, all we seem to know is that she is South African, a non-aristocrat, a former Olympic swimmer, blonde and rather beautiful and that she is currently dating the Prince of Monaco.

At this stage of the game I don't think she has to bring anything to Monaco or to anyone else. She is a private individual with no responsibility to anyone other than herself. Her public appearances are at the behest of the Prince as his date, not in an official role as finace or consort. I think judgements should wait until she has an official role in the principality, and even then perhaps over a period of years.

While couples ideally should be closer in social, economic, educational and age, there are always exceptions that work and a lot of examples where having everything in common failed to keep a couple together.

A current royal couple with a large age gap would be TRH the Duke and Duchess of Braganca. They married in May 1995 when he was 50 and Isabel de Heredia was 29. 12 years and 3 children later they seem to be doing well.

JMO, but then I the kind of guy who prefers to build people up than to tear them down.
With all due respect, if Albert had kept the relationship private I would agree with you. What I mean by private is that she not walk in with the family like last year's ball, that she already be at the event as a guest so as not to draw too much attention to the relationship. But when Charlene is with Albert at the Olympics a very public spot and the photos of them clearly indicate more than a passing friendship it all becomes public and thus speculation. I don't see Charlene as a private individual when she gives interviews to the press with hints about her boyfriend. It has been an all too public affair. Certainly the Prince is entitled to a private life but then there is a difference between a private party and an official event. If the many photos we have seen were taken by telephoto lens at private functions again I will agree with you.

Unfortunately when one holds a public position, ones private life becomes an open book unless it is kept tightly controlled. Having grown up with a father in public office I can appreciate the need for privacy, but I also understand the difference between a private person as in one who does not give interviews to the press, and one who professes privacy while openly giving interviews and using their public connection to enhance themselves. I think you are a bit confused as to where the line is on public and private events. For example and mods please forgive on this, but had Pres. Clinton conducted his affair in the family quarters instead of his office most people would have said it was a private matter and let Hilary deal with it. When one goes to official functions with a date walking behind and not already at the event that is a very public statement. I don't think many who post here want to tear people down but being in the public eye is a tough and there will always be critics. Having said that, my late father once said it is important when one holds public office to understand and be in touch with the man/woman on the street . He who looses touch with his constituents looses his job. I think what is happening here is that you are hearing from the global street citizens who post here because in fact they care a great deal about Monaco and about Albert. I certainly wish nothing but the best for him and for Monaco. JMO
  #399  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post

At this stage of the game I don't think she has to bring anything to Monaco or to anyone else. She is a private individual with no responsibility to anyone other than herself. Her public appearances are at the behest of the Prince as his date, not in an official role as finace or consort. I think judgements should wait until she has an official role in the principality, and even then perhaps over a period of years.

A current royal couple with a large age gap would be TRH the Duke and Duchess of Braganca. They married in May 1995 when he was 50 and Isabel de Heredia was 29. 12 years and 3 children later they seem to be doing well.
.
Well that could have been OK if PA is 35 years old. They could marry and grow together as a couple. PA is almost 50 years old and it would be wise to have a wife whom is ready to take a "job", and not an immature, an uneducated, and a none altruistic girl/woman. Neither Monaco nor PA should wait for next 10 years for Charlene to grow up and get ready to do the work. Especially if she would have started to have babies right away, which would have been desirable considering PA's age.
If she was matured and ready for the challenge I would say go ahead, but she is not and it seems that she is not in a hurry to learn anything. As for the altruisam or you have it or you don't. The same way as with the style.
And Charlene has none!
  #400  
Old 07-25-2007, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I know its like beating a dead horse, but I still insist that people are making an awful lot of judgements about a person we truly know very little about. Factually, all we seem to know is that she is South African, a non-aristocrat, a former Olympic swimmer, blonde and rather beautiful and that she is currently dating the Prince of Monaco.

At this stage of the game I don't think she has to bring anything to Monaco or to anyone else. She is a private individual with no responsibility to anyone other than herself. Her public appearances are at the behest of the Prince as his date, not in an official role as finace or consort. I think judgements should wait until she has an official role in the principality, and even then perhaps over a period of years.

While couples ideally should be closer in social, economic, educational and age, there are always exceptions that work and a lot of examples where having everything in common failed to keep a couple together.

A current royal couple with a large age gap would be TRH the Duke and Duchess of Braganca. They married in May 1995 when he was 50 and Isabel de Heredia was 29. 12 years and 3 children later they seem to be doing well.

JMO, but then I'm the kind of guy who prefers to build people up than to tear them down.
Values. I think individuals should have strong values which they live for and cannot be swayed by anything on them.
While CW is the "official companion" that tells me her values are not that strong and that she is self interested & possibly willing to compromise them for that title.Judgements can be made democratically because they are philosophically sound . For instance reproof and condemnation are two different things.JMO
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