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  #181  
Old 11-07-2005, 06:14 PM
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John Paul II legitimized Caro's children in 1993, one year after her marriage with Junot was annulled by Sacra Rota, because Stefano was already dead and they couldn't marry in churh anymore...I think the monegasque diplomacy worked quite hard to obtain this legitimization, just in case Albert didn't marry, so the Casiraghi Trio are legitimate heirs both for the State and for the Catholic Church...

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  #182  
Old 11-07-2005, 06:32 PM
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Neither Caroline nor Stephanie have been married in Church to their husbands, thus to my knowledge the CHurch would not recognize any of the offspring as legitimite. According to French law (which is similar to MC laws) the children are legitimate if the father signs a reconaissance d'enfant before the child is born (married or not if you are living together, but you have to make a statement that you are living together). (things are a bit more complicated if it happens after the birth). But France is a laic state whereas MC is a catholic state and thus the catholic churches point of view is very important. But I must admit that , not being catholic myself, I am not quite sure how the problem of remarriage, civil marriage and children is handled today by the church.
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  #183  
Old 11-07-2005, 06:39 PM
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I didn't know that about JP2. Thanks grace. That clears it up. I know that MC has an ambassador to the Vatican and there is a close contact.
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  #184  
Old 11-07-2005, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Paca = Neither Caroline nor Stephanie have been married in Church to their husbands, thus to my knowledge the CHurch would not recognize any of the offspring as legitimite. According to French law (which is similar to MC laws) the children are legitimate if the father signs a reconaissance d'enfant before the child is born (married or not if you are living together, but you have to make a statement that you are living together). (things are a bit more complicated if it happens after the birth). But France is a laic state whereas MC is a catholic state and thus the catholic churches point of view is very important. But I must admit that , not being catholic myself, I am not quite sure how the problem of remarriage, civil marriage and children is handled today by the church.
I am Catholic. You don't have to be married in the Church your marriage can be blessed. Marriage made Stephs children legitimate. Albert signed a paper to recogonize Alexandre however he is not legitimate. Recognition only means the man is legally responsible for the child it doesn't change their legitimatcy.
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  #185  
Old 11-08-2005, 08:29 AM
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I think we are confusing religion and legal legitimization:

for the State there is a difference between a recognized child (born out of wedlock but recognized by the father on their birth certificate or afterwards) and a legitimate one born by a narried couple; Monaco Constitution completely cuts out natural children from the line of succession, so Camille and Alexandre cannot possibly (under this Constitution) inherit the throne while all the others can.

For the Church legitimate children are those born in a Catholic union; from this point of view only the Casiraghi Trio are legitimate thanks to the Pope's intervention (as I've said when Caro's first marriage was finally annulled Stefano had already died), while Alexandra, and Steph's kids were born out of a catholic union.

Despite Monaco being a Catholic and not laic State, the Church legitimization has no legal value, but only a simbolic one for the succession line, so the Casiraghis, Alexandra, Louis and Pauline are all eligible for the throne...

Hope I've made things a little clearer,

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  #186  
Old 11-08-2005, 08:50 AM
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I too am Catholic. I would think that any man, including Prince Albert, could marry a divorced woman in the Catholic Church as long as the divorced woman had received a bona fide annullment from the Vatican dissolving the prior marriage. I don't recall hearing about any laws in Monaco barring a ruling Prince from marrying a divorcee (as long as she received the anullment) and then married the Prince in a proper Catholic ceremony in the sight of God. (As I mentioned earlier, how all of that would go over with the "old school" Monagasques is a different matter. Maybe some would be relieved just have their Prince Albert finally marry even if it was to a divorced woman, maybe not).
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  #187  
Old 11-08-2005, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mw7060a
Since Nicole Kidman is a divorcee, in order for her and Prince Albert to properly marry in the Catholic Church, Nicole Kidman would first have to petition and then receive an anullment from the Vatican. I think the thought of marrying a divorcee might turn off some of the "older/old school" Monagasques about their Prince. Nothing against Nicole Kidman, mind you, but just trying to look at this realistically.
Did Nicole Kidman get married by catholic church? because as we have seen, Letizia Ortiz was legally married and did not have problems to get married by church as they did not recognized her previous marriage.
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  #188  
Old 11-08-2005, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mw7060a
I too am Catholic. I would think that any man, including Prince Albert, could marry a divorced woman in the Catholic Church as long as the divorced woman had received a bona fide annullment from the Vatican dissolving the prior marriage. I don't recall hearing about any laws in Monaco barring a ruling Prince from marrying a divorcee (as long as she received the anullment) and then married the Prince in a proper Catholic ceremony in the sight of God.
Why does she have to have an annullment? What if she can't because she has children from previous marriage?
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  #189  
Old 11-08-2005, 09:03 AM
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I've heard that an anullment is possible even if there are children corn from the union. I would have to look it up though....
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  #190  
Old 11-08-2005, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna
Why does she have to have an annullment? What if she can't because she has children from previous marriage?
The Catholic Church does not recognize divorce. Period. Divorce is something the State grants, not the Catholic Church. "What God has joined together, let no Man put asunder." That is one of the tenets of the Catholic faith regarding the Sacrament of Marriage. The Catholic Church only recognizes an anullment. In order for a divorced person to "marry" in the eyes of the Catholic Church, they have to petition and receive an anullment from the Vatican. Without the anullment, the Catholic Church views second marriages as committing adultery. Also, having children does not bar someone from requesting/receiving an anullment nor does it cause children to become "illegitimate".
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  #191  
Old 11-08-2005, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mw7060a
Since Nicole Kidman is a divorcee, in order for her and Prince Albert to properly marry in the Catholic Church, Nicole Kidman would first have to petition and then receive an anullment from the Vatican. I think the thought of marrying a divorcee might turn off some of the "older/old school" Monagasques about their Prince. Nothing against Nicole Kidman, mind you, but just trying to look at this realistically.
Did Tom & Nicole marry in the catholic church?
If they didn't then the church would not recognise the marriage. It would surely be a similar case to Letizia who had contracted a civil marriage but was not considered by the church to have been married.

I also doubt that the catholic church recognises a cult like scientology!!
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  #192  
Old 11-08-2005, 09:59 AM
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Donna you are to funny. Let me explain when I see a question asked in the Forum and I don't know the answer I research it to make the post in response. I have an investigation background in law enforcement and have been doing research in the mental health field for over 20 years. Have been researching the Grimaldis since the summer of 1998. Albert and I have the same great etc grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins on our fathers mothers fathers side. Lady Mary Douglas Hamilton married to Albert I connects us. I read and retain information in this area due to an interest in it. As stated Albert can marry a woman that is divorced just as Albert I and Mary both remarried. She had another child Albert did not. When Albert and Mary got their annulment Louis was still considered legitimate. An annulment by the church makes any child born in that marriage illegitimate since it doesn't recognize the marriage afterwards. Exceptions do occur like with Louis to be Albert's heir.
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  #193  
Old 11-08-2005, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mw7060a
As I mentioned earlier, how all of that would go over with the "old school" Monagasques is a different matter. Maybe some would be relieved just have their Prince Albert finally marry even if it was to a divorced woman, maybe not).
I truely think that the Monegasques wouldn't have any problems with a divorcee or a woman with child as i.e. mette-marit. I even think that a child might make her accepted even easier (especially if it is small and cute) seeing how child friendly people are here. At least they would know that she can have children. I also don't think that people would compare her much with Grace. Especially not the young generation, who didn't even know her. People would like to see PA married for his own sake mostly and as long as they are happy and she does a good job, she won't have any problems with the regular monegasques. Besides a good media strategy would help as well to get her accepted, no matter who she is and what se looks like. Good PR can remedy a lot, though at present I think PA is not very well advised and using his lawyer as his speaker instead of his press office doesn't help (there seems to have been a bit of a problem there, I don't know the details but the official press office does very little for his PR. All statements about the families private life were lately issued by Mtre Lacoste. And other notes are very scarce.)

I think PA raised expectations himself by being so secretive about his GFs. Since he has not been tempted into marriage by any of those considered to be beautiful and eligible women, everybody is expecting wonderwoman now.
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  #194  
Old 11-08-2005, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paca
.....I think PA raised expectations himself by being so secretive about his GFs. Since he has not been tempted into marriage by any of those considered to be beautiful and eligible women, everybody is expecting wonderwoman now.
Right. If and when he marries, the woman will be scrutinized like no other girl was scrutinized before.
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  #195  
Old 11-08-2005, 10:15 PM
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IMO at this time and date: it no longer matters if the woman he marries is divorced with seven kids and two elephants, he can swing that constitution in one second either way. I'm also catholic and the fact the church does not recognized divorce is just semantics; if they dont recognize it; what's the point of annull it?
After seeing the new princes of wales wear a tiara/crown bigger than the queen, the so called catholic kings of spain sign a law permitting homosexual marriages, without a blink from the king and a lot of other details, to put it nicely; credo/color/background it does not matter anymore.
And for the love of pete, we are talking Monaco here, where is the dinasty of straight blue blood?
And you know what? I don't doubt that albert go back and marries or lives with NC. For the last 2 weeks everything that you have seen or heard about royalty isn't a fairy tale of princesses loving each other till death do us 'part, it's an institution or a few royal houses trying to be kept alive.:(
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  #196  
Old 11-09-2005, 03:42 AM
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It seems that Nicole Kidman is gaining the votes, but I'm wondering about something else. On paper, which woman from a royal, noble, or aristocratic background would be a perfect match for Prince Albert? Those who have lost their throne or titles can be included as well. I'm not including the compatibility factor here. Just blue blooded potential brides to Albert that will make royal watchers say WOW.

For example, a hypothetical match between Prince Albert and Spain's Duchess of Alba's daughter would surely grab headlines. Can somebody suggest other matches similar to that?
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  #197  
Old 11-09-2005, 03:45 AM
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I think he needs a good wife who is a great mother... putting children first...
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  #198  
Old 11-09-2005, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_barbarella
I think he needs a good wife who is a great mother... putting children first...
I agree with you. Let's not talk more about Nicole Kidman. She is not the right woman for him, neither is any woman with blue blood. He needs someone with red hot blood, someone passionate like himself. Someone the world has never heard of and will take the world by storm

She will have a unique fashion sense. I am so tired of these celebrities with their plastic boobs hanging out of their dresses. And slits up to their waist. It is disgusting. The future princess will have class and glamour in a classy way.
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  #199  
Old 11-10-2005, 06:37 AM
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Another link to the Sharmine rumour. Pix on page 3

http://www.frau-im-spiegel.de/leute/sharivar.html
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  #200  
Old 11-10-2005, 08:06 AM
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Maria-Carolina Christina Princess de Bourbon de Parme, Marchioness of Sala (Her Royal Highness)

Parents: Carlos Hugues Duke of Parma (1930) and 1964 (div. 1981), Irene Princess of the Netherlands (1939)
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