Unidentified, Mystery and Lost Royal Jewels - Page 4

felicia · #61 08-05-2006, 12:42 PM

None of them are Queen Victoria's tiara that she is wearing in the paintings. The Baden Fringe is the most similar.

gogm · #62 08-05-2006, 01:41 PM

These and kokoshniks look like they're radiating from the face, but they also draw attention to the face.

That may be why these designs are so popular.

HRH Mims · #63 08-05-2006, 04:10 PM

Baden Fringe and Sunray diadem aren't the same I think. Sunray has fringes all like one. Baden fringe has from bigger to smaller fringes. Does anybody know, what I mean?

ayvee · #64 08-05-2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mims111

Baden Fringe and Sunray diadem aren't the same I think. Sunray has fringes all like one. Baden fringe has from bigger to smaller fringes. Does anybody know, what I mean?

The Sunray Diadem we are referring to is the one that Queen Victoria is wearing in the painting which looks remarkably similar to Crown Princess Victoria's Baden Fringe Tiara. These are both graduated - meaning bigger in the center and getting smaller away from the center. In most of the fringe tiaras, there are two distinct shapes that alternate with one another.

In Queen Aleaxandra's fringe tiara, each fringe has the same shape but it is still graduated.

-Ayvee

felicia · #65 08-06-2006, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayvee

The Sunray Diadem we are referring to is the one that Queen Victoria is wearing in the painting which looks remarkably similar to Crown Princess Victoria's Baden Fringe Tiara. These are both graduated - meaning bigger in the center and getting smaller away from the center. In most of the fringe tiaras, there are two distinct shapes that alternate with one another.

In Queen Aleaxandra's fringe tiara, each fringe has the same shape but it is still graduated.

-Ayvee

Victoria of Sweden's tiara is the most similiar I have ever seen to Queen Victoria's Sunray Diadem. I don't know much about the history of the Swedish royal jewelry, so I can't say for sure whethre it is the same one. My guess would be it's not. Ayvee, did you see the other portrait of QV I posted earlier, it has a bit better view of the tiara?

branchg · #66 08-06-2006, 12:31 PM

Victoria is wearing the George III diamond fringe tiara created using diamonds from George III's collection. It was left to the Crown after Victoria's death and was worn as a necklace by Queen Alexandra. Queen Mary converted it back to a tiara after Alexandra died.

When George VI became King, Queen Elizabeth selected the tiara from the jewels Queen Mary turned over to her as the new Consort. The tiara worn by The Queen on her wedding day was borrowed from Queen Mary's personal collection and had a similar style.

felicia · #67 08-06-2006, 06:46 PM

Hmmm, I think we've been through this before and established that it's not the George III Fringe Tiara. See the section I've quoted from Tiaras: A History of Splendour. They are different tiaras. The Sunray Diadem was made for Queen Adelaide. The George III Fringe Tiara was made for Queen Mary and is SAID to contain diamonds from George III's collection.

ayvee · #68 08-06-2006, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by felicia

In the Winterhalter portrait below, Queen Victoria is wearing her ''Sunray" tiara. I like it a lot. Where is it now? Does the royal family still have it? If not, why?

Hi Felicia,
In Leslie Field's book "The Queen's Jewels" (which I have) - which was written with permission of QEII and according to Leslie during an interview in a Joan Rivers show awhile back, QEII also edited her work and corrected some of her facts - this portrait appears on p. 41 and has a title, "The King George III Fringe Tiara".

Underneath the caption on this particular painting it says:
"The diamond fringe tiara - a graduated circle of vertical rows of diamonds - was made in 1830 as a necklace from brilliant-cut stones that had belonged to King George III. Although designed to be worn either as a collar or mounted on a thin wire band as a tiara, it is as a necklace that its sunray design is most apparent. Queen Victoria first wore it as a tiara when she paid an official visit to the Opera in 1839. ABOVE (referring to the painting): In Winterhalter's painting, The First of May, made in 1851, she wears it as she holds Prince Arthur, the future Duke of Connaught, while his godfather the Duke of Wellington presents him with a jewel-studded gold box and Prince Albert looks on. In her will, the necklace was one of the items Queen Victoria left to the Crown, and it was then described as a diamond fringe necklace."

I also have Geoffrey Munn's book and although it's quite authoritative and thorough, I would put Leslie Field's book ahead of Munn only because QEII was involved in this book. Leslie said, in her interview with Joan Rivers, that QEII was quite meticulous about what she (Field) wrote regarding the jewelry that QEII owned or wore. In the end, QEII gave her a diamond pin as a present which she showed everyone during the Joan Rivers show.

So, although I admit the Baden Fringe Tiara looks like the one in this painting with Queen Victoria, this tiara is in fact the King George III fringe tiara which is still in the royal family and used for Queen and Queen Consorts of England.

Best regards,

Ayvee

ayvee · #69 08-07-2006, 08:55 AM

Since I quoted Leslie Field's book The Queen's Jewels regarding the fringe tiara, I quote what Geoffrey Munn says in "Tiaras, A History of Splendour" from p. 165.

"There is some confusion surrounding a Russian fringe tiara made in 1830 from brilliant-cut stones that had belonged to King George III. It has been suggested that this was the tiara visible in 'The First of May', Winterhalter's painting of Queen Victoria's family of 1851. Given the accuracy with which Winterhalter rendered the smallest of details, it is difficult to reconcile the pitch of the fringe and the width of the spade-shaped elements of the tiara in the picture with the Russian fringe tiara worn by the present Queen and the Princess Royal on their wedding days. Although the present example may well incorporate some of the stones from King George's collection, it cannot be the smae jewel as that associated with the early days of Queen Victoria's reign. In fact it was made by E. Wolff & Co to Queen Mary's order in 1919 and can be worn as a necklace or a tiara."

My own comments: I must agree with Munn that from the painting, the spade-shaped elements looks different from the current fringe tiara but it could just be how it was painted. As for the pitch of the tiara in the painting, it's probably just how the tiara frame holds it up and worn on the head. Since this is a convertible necklace, the tiara frame it sits on can be adjusted for the wearer's head.

The tiara in the painting will have to remain a mystery to me.

Best regards,

Ayvee

felicia · #70 08-08-2006, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayvee

Since I quoted Leslie Field's book The Queen's Jewels regarding the fringe tiara, I quote what Geoffrey Munn says in "Tiaras, A History of Splendour" from p. 165...

As I posted before the tiara in question was also painted in that painting of Q Victoria with seven of her children. It looks really different from the George III Fringe Tiara there as well. I am more inclined to trust Munn since he is such an expert. But Leslie Field had the Queen's input as you say. Munn firmly believes (see the other bits I quoted from his book) that they are not the same tiara/diadem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayvee

In Leslie Field's book "The Queen's Jewels"...this portrait appears on p. 41 and has a title, "The King George III Fringe Tiara"...

Thanks a lot for quoting your source Ayvee. I'm not so sure it isn't the George III Fringe Tiara. But it just looks really different from the painting. The one in the painting looks nicer I think. Maybe Queen Mary had it altered or something. Munn said the George III Fringe Tiara was made for Queen Mary. I don't know which is the truth.

**Marengo** · #71 08-08-2006, 05:10 AM

Here a picture of Queen Emma of The Netherlands with the dutch old crown parure. The necklace has the famous Stuart/Holland diamond. The parure was broken up to make the new crown parure.

(pic originally posted by John R on the Benelux Royals MB)

magnik · #72 08-08-2006, 11:56 AM

About Queen Marie of Romania tiaras - what are these two?

1. http://www.tkinter.smig.net/QueenMar...ry/Marie56.htm
2. http://www.tkinter.smig.net/QueenMar...ry/Marie71.htm

felicia · #73 08-08-2006, 12:00 PM

Well the second one is her coronation crown. I think she can pull these off! I like Queen Marie.

HRH Mims · #74 08-08-2006, 01:25 PM

oh gosh! it looks like from lord of the rings

**Warren** · #75 08-09-2006, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mims111

oh gosh! it looks like from lord of the rings

Queen Marie was renowned for being just a touch theatrical. magnik's link1. pic is a good example.

felicia · #76 08-10-2006, 09:30 AM

Queen Marie looks fantastic

HRH Mims · #77 08-10-2006, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnik

About Queen Marie of Romania tiaras - what are these two?

1. http://www.tkinter.smig.net/QueenMar...ry/Marie56.htm
2. http://www.tkinter.smig.net/QueenMar...ry/Marie71.htm

Has anyone more infos about this tiara/crown? Or better pics? I just wanna see how it looks, because on these pics it looks little bit like plastic.

felicia · #78 08-10-2006, 10:17 AM

You can see the Romanian Crown Jewels on Wikipedia, including Queen Marie's coronation crown. And believe me, they are definitely NOT plastic.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Crown_Jewels

Marie was a Queen, as if she would wear a plastic crown.

qui mal y pense · #79 08-10-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mims111

I found these fringe's tiaras:
http://royal-jewels.blogspot.com/200...f-fringes.html
queen's tiaras: http://www.mandysroyalty.org/aTiaras.html

I think the tiara princess mary is wearing is the most similar to the sunray of the current known BRF tiaras. and that would explain why we don't know where it is since most of her jewels were sold off for death duties. I don't care what Leslie Fields says, have seen so Many dumb mistakes in books and publications- I once saw a picture of the queen mother's crown with a caption saying it was St. Edwards! (I also don't believe the Queen gave her a diamond pin- especially since they give foreign royals signed photos in return for the lavish gifts they receive.)