Unidentified, Mystery and Lost Royal Jewels


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None of them are Queen Victoria's tiara that she is wearing in the paintings. The Baden Fringe is the most similar.
 
Queen Victoria's Fringe

These and kokoshniks look like they're radiating from the face, but they also draw attention to the face.

That may be why these designs are so popular.
 
Baden Fringe and Sunray diadem aren't the same I think. Sunray has fringes all like one. Baden fringe has from bigger to smaller fringes. Does anybody know, what I mean?
 
mims111 said:
Baden Fringe and Sunray diadem aren't the same I think. Sunray has fringes all like one. Baden fringe has from bigger to smaller fringes. Does anybody know, what I mean?
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The Sunray Diadem we are referring to is the one that Queen Victoria is wearing in the painting which looks remarkably similar to Crown Princess Victoria's Baden Fringe Tiara. These are both graduated - meaning bigger in the center and getting smaller away from the center. In most of the fringe tiaras, there are two distinct shapes that alternate with one another.

In Queen Aleaxandra's fringe tiara, each fringe has the same shape but it is still graduated.

-Ayvee
 
Victoria of Sweden's tiara is the most similiar I have ever seen to Queen Victoria's Sunray Diadem. I don't know much about the history of the Swedish royal jewelry, so I can't say for sure whethre it is the same one. My guess would be it's not. Ayvee, did you see the other portrait of QV I posted earlier, it has a bit better view of the tiara?
 
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Victoria is wearing the George III diamond fringe tiara created using diamonds from George III's collection. It was left to the Crown after Victoria's death and was worn as a necklace by Queen Alexandra. Queen Mary converted it back to a tiara after Alexandra died.

When George VI became King, Queen Elizabeth selected the tiara from the jewels Queen Mary turned over to her as the new Consort. The tiara worn by The Queen on her wedding day was borrowed from Queen Mary's personal collection and had a similar style.
 
Hmmm, I think we've been through this before and established that it's not the George III Fringe Tiara. See the section I've quoted from Tiaras: A History of Splendour. They are different tiaras. The Sunray Diadem was made for Queen Adelaide. The George III Fringe Tiara was made for Queen Mary and is SAID to contain diamonds from George III's collection.
 
felicia said:
In the Winterhalter portrait below, Queen Victoria is wearing her ''Sunray" tiara. I like it a lot. Where is it now? Does the royal family still have it? If not, why?

CrystalPalaceWinterh.jpg
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Hi Felicia,
In Leslie Field's book "The Queen's Jewels" (which I have) - which was written with permission of QEII and according to Leslie during an interview in a Joan Rivers show awhile back, QEII also edited her work and corrected some of her facts - this portrait appears on p. 41 and has a title, "The King George III Fringe Tiara".

Underneath the caption on this particular painting it says:
"The diamond fringe tiara - a graduated circle of vertical rows of diamonds - was made in 1830 as a necklace from brilliant-cut stones that had belonged to King George III. Although designed to be worn either as a collar or mounted on a thin wire band as a tiara, it is as a necklace that its sunray design is most apparent. Queen Victoria first wore it as a tiara when she paid an official visit to the Opera in 1839. ABOVE (referring to the painting): In Winterhalter's painting, The First of May, made in 1851, she wears it as she holds Prince Arthur, the future Duke of Connaught, while his godfather the Duke of Wellington presents him with a jewel-studded gold box and Prince Albert looks on. In her will, the necklace was one of the items Queen Victoria left to the Crown, and it was then described as a diamond fringe necklace."

I also have Geoffrey Munn's book and although it's quite authoritative and thorough, I would put Leslie Field's book ahead of Munn only because QEII was involved in this book. Leslie said, in her interview with Joan Rivers, that QEII was quite meticulous about what she (Field) wrote regarding the jewelry that QEII owned or wore. In the end, QEII gave her a diamond pin as a present which she showed everyone during the Joan Rivers show.

So, although I admit the Baden Fringe Tiara looks like the one in this painting with Queen Victoria, this tiara is in fact the King George III fringe tiara which is still in the royal family and used for Queen and Queen Consorts of England.

Best regards,

Ayvee
 
Since I quoted Leslie Field's book The Queen's Jewels regarding the fringe tiara, I quote what Geoffrey Munn says in "Tiaras, A History of Splendour" from p. 165.

"There is some confusion surrounding a Russian fringe tiara made in 1830 from brilliant-cut stones that had belonged to King George III. It has been suggested that this was the tiara visible in 'The First of May', Winterhalter's painting of Queen Victoria's family of 1851. Given the accuracy with which Winterhalter rendered the smallest of details, it is difficult to reconcile the pitch of the fringe and the width of the spade-shaped elements of the tiara in the picture with the Russian fringe tiara worn by the present Queen and the Princess Royal on their wedding days. Although the present example may well incorporate some of the stones from King George's collection, it cannot be the smae jewel as that associated with the early days of Queen Victoria's reign. In fact it was made by E. Wolff & Co to Queen Mary's order in 1919 and can be worn as a necklace or a tiara."

My own comments: I must agree with Munn that from the painting, the spade-shaped elements looks different from the current fringe tiara but it could just be how it was painted. As for the pitch of the tiara in the painting, it's probably just how the tiara frame holds it up and worn on the head. Since this is a convertible necklace, the tiara frame it sits on can be adjusted for the wearer's head.

The tiara in the painting will have to remain a mystery to me.

Best regards,

Ayvee
 
ayvee said:
Since I quoted Leslie Field's book The Queen's Jewels regarding the fringe tiara, I quote what Geoffrey Munn says in "Tiaras, A History of Splendour" from p. 165...
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As I posted before the tiara in question was also painted in that painting of Q Victoria with seven of her children. It looks really different from the George III Fringe Tiara there as well. I am more inclined to trust Munn since he is such an expert. But Leslie Field had the Queen's input as you say. Munn firmly believes (see the other bits I quoted from his book) that they are not the same tiara/diadem.

ayvee said:
In Leslie Field's book "The Queen's Jewels"...this portrait appears on p. 41 and has a title, "The King George III Fringe Tiara"...
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot for quoting your source Ayvee. I'm not so sure it isn't the George III Fringe Tiara. But it just looks really different from the painting. The one in the painting looks nicer I think. Maybe Queen Mary had it altered or something. Munn said the George III Fringe Tiara was made for Queen Mary. I don't know which is the truth.
 
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Here a picture of Queen Emma of The Netherlands with the dutch old crown parure. The necklace has the famous Stuart/Holland diamond. The parure was broken up to make the new crown parure.

(pic originally posted by John R on the Benelux Royals MB)

oude.jpg
 
Well the second one is her coronation crown. I think she can pull these off! I like Queen Marie.
 
oh gosh! it looks like from lord of the rings :lol:
 
mims111 said:
oh gosh! it looks like from lord of the rings :lol:
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Queen Marie was renowned for being just a touch theatrical. magnik's link1. pic is a good example.
 
mims111 said:
I found these fringe's tiaras:
http://royal-jewels.blogspot.com/2006/03/feast-of-fringes.html
queen's tiaras: http://www.mandysroyalty.org/aTiaras.html
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I think the tiara princess mary is wearing is the most similar to the sunray of the current known BRF tiaras. and that would explain why we don't know where it is since most of her jewels were sold off for death duties. I don't care what Leslie Fields says, have seen so Many dumb mistakes in books and publications- I once saw a picture of the queen mother's crown with a caption saying it was St. Edwards! (I also don't believe the Queen gave her a diamond pin- especially since they give foreign royals signed photos in return for the lavish gifts they receive.)
 
Well, there are many viewers who watched the Joan Rivers show where Leslie Field showed the gold bar pin (no diamonds) that she received. In fact, I still have it on VHS. Joan Rivers comment was pretty funny because her response was, "That's it! That's all you got." I don't think Field would lie about something like that.

But then again, you're entitled to your own beliefs.

Ayvee
 
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qui mal y pense said:
I think the tiara princess mary is wearing is the most similar to the sunray of the current known BRF tiaras...
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No its not that one that Princess Mary, the Princess Royal wore. That was her own fringe tiara. It's either the George III Fringe Tiara or it is no longer worn by British Royals.
 
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You have got to be kidding. The fabulous Queen Marie, who really was an heroic individual, in that first picture is ridiculous. Either the crown/tiara is phony or the thing must have weighed a ton. She must have on a neck brace if the thing is real. There is a picture from somewhere around here of her wearing a fabulous pearl and dimond tiara and this perfectly hideous stomacher-did the Noble Warren dredge that out of his barn load of goodies, by chance? I guess tastes change. But she, these foibles of taste and all was one magnificent lady. Her greatest disappointment must have been her ne'er do well son Carol II, talk about a looser. In any case that is another story. cheers.
 
Thomas Parkman said:
The fabulous Queen Marie, who really was an heroic individual... There is a picture from somewhere around here of her wearing a fabulous pearl and dimond tiara and this perfectly hideous stomacher.
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Yes Thomas, the pic is in this very thread. To save you the trouble of paging through, here is the link. All part of the service.
 
Well, good people, the Queen Marie in that picture Warren has so kindly directed to my attention is simply Drop Dead Gorgeous. The pearl and diamond tiara is a marvel. I am delighted and amazed that the ducal house of Luxemburg has such a rich and varied collection of goodies. I am so very grateful to the members for bringing it to the list's attention. While some of them I do not care for, just who am I to make value judgements in the first place. These good people obviously have had a high old time wearing and flaunting all those goodies.

Would it be beyond the ken for the noble Warren to explain just what happened to the house of Nassau and how they got done in by the Prussians and then bounced back and danced on the Prussians graves? I am totally ignorant of what would appear to be a fascinating royal history. I do note that somewhere or other you or somebody referred to Queen Mary as modest. I laughed at that one. There was not a modest bone in the woman's most royal and jewel bedecked body. If you got it flaunt it and she most certainly did . Cheers.
 
Nassaus, Netherlands and Luxembourg

Thomas Parkman said:
...to explain just what happened to the house of Nassau and how they got done in by the Prussians and then bounced back and danced on the Prussians graves?
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A short off-topic deviation:
The House of Nassau had two major branches: Orange, of the Netherlands, and Weilburg, who reigned as the Dukes of Nassau. In 1866 the Bismarck-engineered Austro-Prussian War (over Schleswig-Holstein, of all places) occurred. Those states who had sided with Austria against expansionist Prussia paid a price; eg Hanover, Hesse-Cassel and Nassau were annexed outright by Prussia and their reigning King, Elector and Duke dethroned.

In 1815 the Congress of Vienna, in the post-Napoleonic reorganisation of Europe, gave the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg to the King of the Netherlands. In 1890 when King Willem III died he was succeeded in his Dutch kingdom by his daughter Wilhelmina. However, Luxembourg was subject to Salic Law. The far-sighted Nassaus (Orange and Weilburg) had cleverly made provision for the lack of a male heir over a century previously. Thus by the Family Pact of 1783 the deposed Duke Adolf of Nassau, being the Head of the senior Weilburg branch, regained a throne and become the Grand Duke Adolphe of Luxembourg. His descendants reign today; the Prussian throne disappeared in 1918.

...somebody referred to Queen Mary as modest. I laughed at that one.
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It was a comment referring to Queen Mary's "modest" display of diamonds and jewels, intended to raise a wry chuckle.
 
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Well, Warren, since I know nothing of the history of Luxemburg, please correct me if I am wrong but at some point the Salic law was set aside. After all as I recall the Grand Duchess Charlotte inherited the throne, from her father ? grandfather? Of course all the goodies that they are wearing are quite wonderful. I am delighted that the House of Nassau got the last laugh and got to dance on the graves of the House of Bismark and the House of Hohenzollern. Could not have happened to a more deserving group of people.

Of course it is a good thing I got to them and saw themyesterday the jewels that is, as they have all been locked up and now, thanks to censorship we can no longer see them. Between adolescent sensitivity, copywright sensitivity and a total lack of humour this place is going to rack and ruin. I suppose we must sneak goodies through and let every body get a quick look before they all disappear in cyberspace never to be seen again. Sigh!! The story of my life-frustration. cheers
 
Thomas Parkman said:
... the history of Luxemburg, please correct me if I am wrong but at some point the Salic law was set aside. After all as I recall the Grand Duchess Charlotte inherited the throne, from her father ? grandfather?
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GD Adolphe (the deposed Duke of Nassau made good) was succeeded by his son, GD Guillaume IV who had six daughters. Being pure pragmatists, the Family Statute of 1907 allowed females to succeed to the throne. Problem solved.

...this place is going to rack and ruin.
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If we want the Forums to continue the copyright law must be respected. The alternative is a shut-down site, which is a fate which befell two Royal Jewels websites in 2005.
They were effectively closed by the Photo Agencies. Kaput. Understand?
 
Yes, my dear Warren, I understand the word kaput all too well. But you will forgive-dare I say even indulge this foolish and broken down remnant-a few groans and moans, or at least a whimper.

All right, I am now going to whine: I still say the Foto Agencies are 1.overacting and 2.behaving in an unbelieveably petty fashion. But there you are. Besides we have all those delicious morsels-ie jewels, tiaras, etc-that have disappeared into cyberspace never to be seen again. Sob. And if nobody here looks at and drools lovingly over them as we do here, who will or does. I guess the FAs must want their goodies to be seen by nobody at all, which really does not make much sense.

In any case I shall now go home and console myself with a large bowl of chocolat ice cream-a forbidden goodie where I am concerned and drool maliciously over all those pictures I have xeroxed off and filed away for just such occasions. They certainly are an antidote to depressing situations such as this. Some of them may have even escaped the clutches of the FAs. Cheers. Thomas Parkman
 
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