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  #21  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post

Thanks for the correction. Sometimes I let the horse run out of the barn. We had this awful made for TV movie over here where Wallis calls him Bertie and that just sticks in my head. My bad.
Haha, perhaps (in the film at least) David and Wallis would sometimes role play that they were the Yorks.
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  #22  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:16 PM
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That's because there was no action that he could take to remove David from the line of succession. The rules regarding succession are pretty clear, all those descended from Sophie of Hanover who are born legitimately, are not Catholics themselves, and do not marry a Catholic can inherit. David met all of these qualifications, so George couldn't do anything to remove him from the line of succession. In fact, not since I think Henry II has an heir been displaced without a usurpation. Henry VIII tried to make it so that he could dictate who his successors were, but once his children had each died the crown followed primogeniture and not Henry's will.

As to the two generations of second sons inheriting, there's actually a long list of second sons who have inherited. Most of the various "I" in English history were sons who weren't expected to inherit - I believe Edward I was the only I born as heir.



Britain didn't have male only primogeniture, they had male preference primogeniture. Male only, commonly called agnostic primogeniture or Salic law, means that only men can inherit and only through male lines. Male preference primogeniture allows women to inherit after their brothers (and any of their bothers' heirs) have died, while semi-Salic law allows for female inheritance after all male lines have been extinguished. There's also one that allows for male inheritance through female descent, but I can't remember what it's called.

England has followed male preference primogeniture since the accession of Mary I. Previously they had allowed for male inheritance through female lines (Henry VII, Henry II, and Stephen being notable examples), but had been iffy about female inheritance (as seen by Matilda). Scotland had at least theoretically allowed female inheritance since Margaret of Norway.



This wasn't an entirely unheard of practice. The basic idea is that if you go through the effort to find a suitable bride for your heir, then your heir goes and dies on you, why not just pass the bride on to the new heir? She likely isn't any less suitable (love didn't factor into it). This is also how Henry VIII married his first wife.
My statement about the 2nd born sons inheriting was not meant to imply that this was the only case of this happening in history of the BRF, but what I found particularly interesting is that this happened in the the 2 generations that directly preceded HM. Like you, I believe it was Elizabeth's destiny to be Queen. I just think about about how fate played this role not only with her father but her grandfather as well. Like I said I find it all absolutely fascinating.

Well about Queen Mary, I thought that George had courted, sought, and actually obtained permission to marry at least 2 other women before he "settled" upon Mary? I would appreciate any clarification on this bit of history that you or anyone else can offer on this point.

But again, my statement was not to imply that this was a shocking practice or that this was some sort of precedent. As with all other things to do with BRF I just find it incredibly interesting as it is my opinion that Mary was "fated" to be Queen and the grandmother of HM Queen Elizabeth.

And as I am just now starting my research into the BRF and its history, I welcome any and all information as this greatly satisfies my curiosity.
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  #23  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Daria_S View Post
I hope you enjoy your stay.

Yes I am very much enjoying it as I am being "schooled" on the history of the BRF as I embark upon my own research.

Although I must admit that there may be some confusion that will come from time to time as to some of the facts. For example, the new law doing away with the male preference primogeniture. As 2 different posters have said 2 different things. (One said it was a law that has been passed and just needs approval from the other CW members. The other said that the law has not been passed) But alas, this just means that I need to do my research and learn facts for myself. Which I am more than happy to do.
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  #24  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:34 PM
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The law has been passed in the UK and Canada but not proclaimed. The deal was that the law would not come into effect until all the other realms had done what was necessary in their countries to pass the legislation. Basically the idea was it becomes law in all the realms at the same time and is retroactive to the date of the agreement at the last CHOGC.
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  #25  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by tspadgett873 View Post

My statement about the 2nd born sons inheriting was not meant to imply that this was the only case of this happening in history of the BRF, but what I found particularly interesting is that this happened in the the 2 generations that directly preceded HM. Like you, I believe it was Elizabeth's destiny to be Queen. I just think about about how fate played this role not only with her father but her grandfather as well. Like I said I find it all absolutely fascinating.

Well about Queen Mary, I thought that George had courted, sought, and actually obtained permission to marry at least 2 other women before he "settled" upon Mary? I would appreciate any clarification on this bit of history that you or anyone else can offer on this point.

But again, my statement was not to imply that this was a shocking practice or that this was some sort of precedent. As with all other things to do with BRF I just find it incredibly interesting as it is my opinion that Mary was "fated" to be Queen and the grandmother of HM Queen Elizabeth.

And as I am just now starting my research into the BRF and its history, I welcome any and all information as this greatly satisfies my curiosity.
I didn't mean to imply that you thought it was a one of occurrence, I merely meant to say that it's happened a lot - I agree with you in thinking that Elizabeth's destiny was to become Queen. To add to that line of thinking, there's also the case of Queen Victoria, the grandmother of the first of our Windsor second sons. Not only was Victoria a woman, and thus not expected to inherit, but she was the daughter of the fourth son of the king. In order for her to inherit, 3 of her uncles, 1 cousin, and her father all had to die, and the first marriage of one of her uncles (William IV) had to be declared void, making his 10 children illegitimate.

With Mary, several women preceded her as prospective spouses for Albert Victor. These include Alix of Hesse and by Rhine, Helene of Orleans, Margaret of Prussia, and Sybil St Claire Erskine. Various issues happened with the others, including I believe one rejection, while Mary was deemed most appropriate by Queen Victoria. George hadn't pursued any brides and was actually awkward around women - in the early stages of their relationship George couldn't really even express his feelings to Mary unless it was in the form of letters. The initial relationship was probably pushed on them by their family - Victoria was invested in Mary marrying her grandson, while Mary's family was able to benefit from her marrying the heir as well.
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  #26  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
Ah tspadgett873, welcome to the wonderful Royal Forum. You have already gotten a taste of the range of our opinions. I will give you one more.

Bertie certainly had HIS opinions and acted on them. He expected others to follow his lead. I have yet to hear about one of his major opinions that proved to be sound/correct/helpful to the evolution of the United Kingdom.

Bertie did not accidentally hold his opinions; he willfully held them. One can love another and still understand why you cannot be with them. I learned that lesson very early in my life and Bertie could have as well. It just takes discipline to make a sound, unselfish choice. Good choices are no accident. Elizabeth II's life has been full of good, unselfish, willful choices.

Anyway - welcome aboard. There is a lot to learn here and a lot of strong opinions. We can all learn from one another.
Thank you for the warm welcome.

Please clarify about Bertie and his opinions. Do you mean Bertie (George VI) or Edward VIII. Because in your statement "One can love another and still understand why you cannot be with them. I learned that lesson very early in my life and Bertie could have as well. It just takes discipline to make a sound, unselfish choice" it sounds to me as if you are referring to Edward VIII and his decision to abdicate vs retaining his position and not marrying Wallis. I am just want to make sure I understand.
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by tspadgett873 View Post

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Please clarify about Bertie and his opinions. Do you mean Bertie (George VI) or Edward VIII. Because in your statement "One can love another and still understand why you cannot be with them. I learned that lesson very early in my life and Bertie could have as well. It just takes discipline to make a sound, unselfish choice" it sounds to me as if you are referring to Edward VIII and his decision to abdicate vs retaining his position and not marrying Wallis. I am just want to make sure I understand.
Admirer meant David (Edward VIII) but wrote Bertie.
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:49 PM
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The new Succession rules, once the Law is passed in all the Commonwealth Realms, will apply to the British Dynasts born from October 28, 2011 onwards.
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I didn't mean to imply that you thought it was a one of occurrence, I merely meant to say that it's happened a lot - I agree with you in thinking that Elizabeth's destiny was to become Queen. To add to that line of thinking, there's also the case of Queen Victoria, the grandmother of the first of our Windsor second sons. Not only was Victoria a woman, and thus not expected to inherit, but she was the daughter of the fourth son of the king. In order for her to inherit, 3 of her uncles, 1 cousin, and her father all had to die, and the first marriage of one of her uncles (William IV) had to be declared void, making his 10 children illegitimate.

With Mary, several women preceded her as prospective spouses for Albert Victor. These include Alix of Hesse and by Rhine, Helene of Orleans, Margaret of Prussia, and Sybil St Claire Erskine. Various issues happened with the others, including I believe one rejection, while Mary was deemed most appropriate by Queen Victoria. George hadn't pursued any brides and was actually awkward around women - in the early stages of their relationship George couldn't really even express his feelings to Mary unless it was in the form of letters. The initial relationship was probably pushed on them by their family - Victoria was invested in Mary marrying her grandson, while Mary's family was able to benefit from her marrying the heir as well.

Oh yes I completely agree with you about Queen Victoria and her unlikely road to becoming Queen again something IMO that was abosultey meant to be. I have just started the research on this, and I am not ashamed to admit that I found it a bit confusing at first. As to how all of the other avenues were "exhausted" allowing her to ascend to the throne. It was the "elector" of Hanover role, that first through for a bit of a loop. Because William IV had 2 successors, one for Hanover and one for the Kingdom of GB as Victoria could not inherit Hanover because of the Salic law.
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  #30  
Old 06-03-2013, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tspadgett873 View Post

Oh yes I completely agree with you about Queen Victoria and her unlikely road to becoming Queen again something IMO that was abosultey meant to be. I have just started the research on this, and I am not ashamed to admit that I found it a bit confusing at first. As to how all of the other avenues were "exhausted" allowing her to ascend to the throne. It was the "elector" of Hanover role, that first through for a bit of a loop. Because William IV had 2 successors, one for Hanover and one for the Kingdom of GB as Victoria could not inherit Hanover because of the Salic law.
Inheritance is a tricky thing. Wait until you start going further back and get to George I or the War of the Roses.

Regarding Victoria, what happened was kind of simple, just rather unlikely. George III had a whole herd of children but didn't really try to marry any of them off. His first five sons were 1. George, Prince of Wales, 2. Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany, 3. Prince William, Duke of Clarence, 4. Prince Edward, Duke of Kent and Strathearn, and 5. Prince Ernest Augustus, Duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale. George married and had a daughter, Princess Charlotte of Wales, but she died during the reign of her grandfather. Her death sparked a race to birth an heir amongst the other brothers, who each quickly married and tried to have legitimate sons.

Both Prince Edward and Prince Ernest Augustus succeeded in having children, but their elder brothers weren't as successful. In 1920, Prince Edward died then shortly after his father died, passing the throne on to the former Prince of Wales, now George III. George never had any more children, and during his reign the second son, Prince Frederick died, so when George died the throne went to the third son, William. William actually had a slew of children, but they were all from a marriage that hadn't been conducted with the permission of his father, so they were all illegitimate. With his wife, Adelaide, he had no surviving children, so when he died his British titles went to Victoria, who was the only child of the fourth son, while his German titles went to the fifth son because of Salic law.
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  #31  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Inheritance is a tricky thing. Wait until you start going further back and get to George I or the War of the Roses.

Regarding Victoria, what happened was kind of simple, just rather unlikely. George III had a whole herd of children but didn't really try to marry any of them off. His first five sons were 1. George, Prince of Wales, 2. Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany, 3. Prince William, Duke of Clarence, 4. Prince Edward, Duke of Kent and Strathearn, and 5. Prince Ernest Augustus, Duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale. George married and had a daughter, Princess Charlotte of Wales, but she died during the reign of her grandfather. Her death sparked a race to birth an heir amongst the other brothers, who each quickly married and tried to have legitimate sons.

Both Prince Edward and Prince Ernest Augustus succeeded in having children, but their elder brothers weren't as successful. In 1920, Prince Edward died then shortly after his father died, passing the throne on to the former Prince of Wales, now George III. George never had any more children, and during his reign the second son, Prince Frederick died, so when George died the throne went to the third son, William. William actually had a slew of children, but they were all from a marriage that hadn't been conducted with the permission of his father, so they were all illegitimate. With his wife, Adelaide, he had no surviving children, so when he died his British titles went to Victoria, who was the only child of the fourth son, while his German titles went to the fifth son because of Salic law.
All I have to say is WOW! And thank you so much for the history lesson. I am still trying to figure out how all the royal houses of Europe (both current, and former) are related. I have heard Victoria reffered to as the grandmother of Europe. As her children have married into almost all of the various royal house If this is true it would seem Charlotte is the "GREAT"-grandmother of Euroupe as she had 15 children??? ( not sure how many survived).


I would also very much appreciate it if someone could point me to a website that has a family tree of the BRF that goes back to William I in 1066. I am sure one exist, just have not found it yet??

Also I would appreciate any recommendations on films that I can watch about the BRF preferably on Netflix. I have already seen The Queen (the 2009 docudrama, The Kings Speech, and I am currently watching Edward the Seventh, Oh yes and Mrs Brown with Dame Judi Dench.
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  #32  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tspadgett873 View Post

All I have to say is WOW! And thank you so much for the history lesson. I am still trying to figure out how all the royal houses of Europe (both current, and former) are related. I have heard Victoria reffered to as the grandmother of Europe. As her children have married into almost all of the various royal house If this is true it would seem Charlotte is the "GREAT"-grandmother of Euroupe as she had 15 children??? ( not sure how many survived).

I would also very much appreciate it if someone could point me to a website that has a family tree of the BRF that goes back to William I in 1066. I am sure one exist, just have not found it yet??

Also I would appreciate any recommendations on films that I can watch about the BRF preferably on Netflix. I have already seen The Queen (the 2009 docudrama, The Kings Speech, and I am currently watching Edward the Seventh, Oh yes and Mrs Brown with Dame Judi Dench.
British Royal Family Tree 849-2013: http://www.britroyals.com/royaltree.htm

Queen Victoria descendants: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_d...g_Christian_IX

There is a thread on here that has Genealogy of the British Royal Family and another threads that has Documentary and books of the Royal Family.
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  #33  
Old 06-03-2013, 11:39 PM
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SLV also made a really good tree that traces some of the ancestors, with a focus on the Hanovers and the Plantagenets. It can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...TlBcmhvN2wzNWc
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