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  #21  
Old 08-02-2007, 03:37 PM
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He did but he changed his mind following the public uproar. I own a rare publication by the Ministry to the Premiership (Minister George Rallis) on the royal family dated 1958, that is during the Karamnlis octannum. In there, Constantine is described as Diadoch, Duke of Sparta. Later on and in order to appease the disenchanted masses, and after Professor Manessis and other consitutional experts declared it unconstitutional, King Constantine backed off from this title and declared that it was not true that he was (or was elevated to) duke of Sparta, but it was. This rare publication is also available in the Library of the Borough of Kensighton (High Street Kensington) fo London, UK.

Needless to say that at this juncture, when former King Constantine of Greece is neither legally or constitutionally linked to the polity of Greece, nor does he hold Greek citizenship, he is free to style his son, Duke of Sparta, Marquess of Delphi, Earl of Rhodes, Viscount of Mycenae and Baron Arcadia or whatever his soul pleases since he still holds royal prerogative.
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  #22  
Old 08-31-2007, 01:28 PM
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I will Consider Pavlos King Paul II When the time comes
And when time comes, someone else may consider Charles, King Charles of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, the United States of America and the Dominions.
Would you be happy with that? I am sure not.
I hope I made the point. Respect other nations as much as you expect them to respect yours!
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  #23  
Old 08-31-2007, 02:30 PM
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As far as I can remember the case as it was in Iran: When Shah Reza died his son gave some interview or so that appeared on his web-page and there he proclaimed himself as new Shah.
By the way: If Constantine dies, will he get the permission (or has it already) to be buried in Greece?
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  #24  
Old 08-31-2007, 02:45 PM
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He will be the titular King of Greece. Like former Crown Prince Ahmad Shah Khan of afghanistan is the Titular King of Afghanistan.
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  #25  
Old 08-31-2007, 05:12 PM
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I had thought that Pavlos would keep using his current courtesy title as the pretender to the throne?
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  #26  
Old 08-31-2007, 05:29 PM
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As far as I can remember the case as it was in Iran: When Shah Reza died his son gave some interview or so that appeared on his web-page and there he proclaimed himself as new Shah.
By the way: If Constantine dies, will he get the permission (or has it already) to be buried in Greece?
As we have discussed time and again, former king Constantine can, and is most welcome to, reside in Greece, and is entitled to live there permanently by virtue of his capacity as a European citizen (Danish) alone, that is, regardless of his Greek citizenship.
It is kind of morbid to talk about death plans for a young person and we wish him very many and happy years ahead. However, he is entitled, and needs no one's permission, to be burried in Greece when he passes on.

Greece does not hold grudges against anyone, let alone the former king. Besides, in all EU member countries, European Law prevails over and supersedes individual State Laws.
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  #27  
Old 08-31-2007, 06:20 PM
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I had thought that Pavlos would keep using his current courtesy title as the pretender to the throne?
Per past precedent, the oldest son of a former king becomes the pretender to the defunct throne.
Currently, in Europe there is only one parallel case, that of Serbia, where the son of former king Peter, Prince Alexander, is styled officially, that is, by the very government of Serbia, as HRH Crown Prince Alexander. However, in his case, there are important and significant differences:
1) The Serbian government has formally recognized the Karadjordjevic Family as a nation-building dynasty. This is the reason, in fact, that the crown adorns the Serbian Flag, the Palaces have been returned to the RF and, albeit without constitutional status, the Crown Prince partakes in many state functions, within Serbia and abroad.
2) Although a majority of Serbians are republicans, the history they are taught at school is intricately related to the Karadjordjevic Family for centuries and Karadjordje is linked to the struggle for independence (from the Ottoman Empire) of the Serbian people.
3) King Peter was dethroned illegally.
In summary, the national identity of the Serbian people is tied to the Karadjordjevic dynasty and the Serbian people themselves chose to style Prince Alexander as HRH Crown Prince Alexander.

In the case of Greece, matters are profoundly different. While former king Constantine retains the royal prerrogative to style his oldest son Crown Prince, this is not in agreement with the sentiment of the Greek people and the Greek Constitution makes no provision for titles of nobility - but this doesn't matter as long as the members of the former royal family choose not to be Greek nationals. In view of Greece's membership to the EU, it is most certain that no European Court will ever recognize him as titular king upon his father's death. In a historical sense, however, he will continue to be known as Crown Prince in view of the fact that at the time of his birth he was a constitutional Crown Prince. This, nonetheless, does not and cannot apply to his morganatic wife, Mrs. Miller, unless former king Constantine elevates her by letters patent to the status of princess [which he would never do because he would lose even the 10-12% of his remaining popularity among the Greeks who, in certain ways, are incurable snobs]. Finally, all these matters are of no interest or concern to the Greek people.
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  #28  
Old 08-31-2007, 06:43 PM
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I know that the Greek government and its people do not recognize the courtesy titles, but I was thinking more of the way that the other royal courts address them. I also wasn't aware that, as a former king, Constantine could issue letters patent regarding anything.
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  #29  
Old 09-01-2007, 03:00 AM
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Pavlos will one day be recognised as the Head of the Royal House of Greece but this is a dynastic position and has nothing to do with the Greek State.

We need to make two distictions with former reigning houses: their relations with the State (ranging from recognition, such as Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia, to virtual zero acknowledgement as with the Savoys), and their position within the royal world (the Gotha). The latter has no relation with the former and it's likely that at a later date some will consider Pavlos as de juré King of the Hellenes and Head of the Royal House, while the Greek Government will see him as no more than Mr Pavlos Glücksburg.

An example of this 'living in two worlds" position: in Germany Prince Ernst August of Hanover is a private citizen with no special privileges; at the Queen Mother's funeral he was among the senior royal mourners as Head of the Royal House of Hanover. Bringing it back to Greece, for the Greek government Constantine is a former Head of State and not special, while in the royal world he retains his full status among the ranks of deposed Monarchs.
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  #30  
Old 09-01-2007, 11:38 AM
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Υοu said it all and in a perfect fashion but with two caveats.

1. Even if some day the Gotha recognizes him as the de jure or titular king of the Hellenes, this shall require acknowledgement or endorsement by the European courts, of reigning houses, that is. And, I seriously doubt that any reigning House will do so.

2. The Gotha world is also changing and adapting as you may have noticed, for instance, in the order of precedence at the wedding of the Prince of the Asturias, the Crown Prince of The Netherlands, etc. In the wedding of the Crown Prince of The Netherlands, Mr Anan took precedence over many royal personages. In the group picture of the Prince of the Asturias' wedding, many presidents of European States took precedence over many royal personages, which was unknown practice in the past. I can remember President Havel, for example, sitting (!) in the first row (!). And you would agree, I am sure, that it would be odd for the President of a State to be present in the same place with a titular king of the same country.
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  #31  
Old 09-07-2007, 03:23 AM
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If I can intrude upon the debate as to whether or not Crown Prince Pavlos will ever be king...I think the answer is "maybe." Going by the present constitution of the Hellenic Republic, the answer is no. Going by tradition that dates to the Congress of Vienna, in how one treats former reigning houses and how one governs titles, the answer is also no. According to convention, Pavlos will continue to be recognized as a crown prince, nothing more. But as to the question of a restoration...could Greece ever consider re-establishing the monarchy? Stranger things have happened. Who ever would have thought that King George II of Greece would be restored to the throne in 1935...probably very few people one he was initially dispatched in 1923...including, most likely, the king himself. If memory serves, he was the one who rather wryly remarked that all one needs to be king of Greece is a suitcase. But I think, in my humble opinion, the more important question is whether Pavlos should become king. Has he done anything to earn the right to be King of the Hellenes...other than be the eldest son of a former king? I think it is clear to most that Juan Carlos of Spain was restored to the throne of Spain because a dictator decreed it...Franco. I think he has remained king of Spain because he has earned the right...he has devoted his life to the service of the Spanish people and to the promulgation and defense of Spanish democracy. Has Pavlos? Has he devoted his life to the Greek people and to Greek democracy? I ask this question because I really don't know. Someone mentioned a while back Crown Prince Alexander II of Serbia. I would not be surprised if we saw a monarchical restoration in Serbia in the next few years because Alexander has been steadily working towards that goal ever since his full time return to Serbia in the late '90s. He has steered clear of politics, save for lobbying for constitutional monarchy and the establishment of democray within Serbia. He and his wife have devoted themselves to philanthopy within Serbia and have sought to encourage foreign investment in their war ravaged country. I think he can be viewed as someone endeavoring to earn the right to be king of Serbia. I think that, if Pavlos seriously wanted to be considered as a possible king of the Hellenes, he should follow in Alexander of Serbia's footsteps. He and Marie Chantal should live full time in the country, devote themselves to the service of the Greek people, and perhaps they will win the people over. But they must be willing to invest years towards this effort...many years. They might not ever be king and queen of Greece, but they might win for the royal family some kind of official recognition...and more importantly, foster respect for a royal past within Greece that I gather so many hold in contempt. As a monarchist myself, one of the few American monarchists I suspect, I would welcome a restoration in any nation that has a monarchical history and tradition. But for a democratic republic to be dislodged in favor of a monarchy, something that I don't think we've yet seen in modern history, there have to be an extraordinary set of events that need to take place in order to make that transition seem logical and desireable...something beyone mere nostalgia. Deposed monarchs and their decendents who desire to be restored to their former positions need to earn the right of return. I would recommend that Pavlos and Marie Chantal roll up their sleeves and get to work helping the victims of the recent fires...if they haven't already. That would be a great first step towards winning the hearts and minds of the Greek people.
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  #32  
Old 09-07-2007, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by orrinhoover View Post
If I can intrude upon the debate as to whether or not Crown Prince Pavlos will ever be king...
You are most welcome

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Originally Posted by orrinhoover View Post
Going by tradition that dates to the Congress of Vienna, in how one treats former reigning houses and how one governs titles, the answer is also no.
I am glad you say that because the former King keeps making references to the Congress of Vienna. Despite the fact that his claims are not correct, he also forgets the crux of the issue: Greece was not a co-signatory for the simple reason that it didn't exist as an independent state in 1814. In fact, the First National Assembly of the Hellenes, after the initiation of the Hellenic Revolution in 1821 and while the war was still going on, took place in 1822.

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Originally Posted by orrinhoover View Post
According to convention, Pavlos will continue to be recognized as a crown prince, nothing more.
You are correct to believe that.

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Originally Posted by orrinhoover View Post
But as to the question of a restoration...could Greece ever consider re-establishing the monarchy?
The best ways to answer this question is with
1. Either another question, what for? or
2. A postive assertion, that is, that Greece could benefit from the restoration of monarchy as much as the USA would from the same.

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Originally Posted by orrinhoover View Post
Stranger things have happened. Who ever would have thought that King George II of Greece would be restored to the throne in 1935...probably very few people one he was initially dispatched in 1923...including, most likely, the king himself. If memory serves, he was the one who rather wryly remarked that all one needs to be king of Greece is a suitcase.
You are getting off topic. You may find details about past circumstances under thread The Position of the Royal Family and Attitudes to Restoration where I would be delighted to compare circumstances of the past etc.

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Originally Posted by orrinhoover View Post
But I think, in my humble opinion, the more important question is whether Pavlos should become king.
Again, this thread is not about the restoration of monarchy in Greece and Warren will get upset if I start discussing the issue. You are referred to the aforementioned thread where we can discuss the matter to exhaustion. The question of this thread is whether the former Crown Prince of Greece, Crown Prince Paul can be or will be elevated to the status of Titular King (and less so Reigning King) upon his father's passing in the distant future.
Answer as to Titular King has been given by Warren above. Answering whether he will, would or should become a reigning King may be given again through the question, What would or could Greece, a solid and prospering sovereign State, member of the EU, benefit from having a hereditary Head od State instead of an elected one.

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Originally Posted by orrinhoover View Post
Has he devoted his life to the Greek people and to Greek democracy? I ask this question because I really don't know.
He hasn't been asked, and doesn't need to and it would be odd for a Danish citizen to do so in Greece. The smartest thing former King Constantine and his children could do would be to strip themselves of their titles, adopt a surname, become Greek citizens and run for political office etc.
It is important for a non-Greek to understand, first and foremost, that contemporary Greeks up to the age of 40 don't have the slightest clue about the frictions of the past and they don't care about politics. But the concept of a hereditary head of State is as foreign to them as to the American people.
I hope you also understand that while in the past the Hellenes had a positive attitude toward the Monarchy but a negative one against the personages, nowadays, they have no problem against the personages but they are not interested in the concept od hereditary Head of State.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orrinhoover View Post
He and Marie Chantal should live full time in the country
They can do so anytime as Danish citizens, or as Greek citizens after they adopt a surname and then, and then only, they can play politics and do as they please.

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Originally Posted by orrinhoover View Post
....devote themselves to the service of the Greek people, and perhaps they will win the people over.
The Queen and Diana have won the hearts of the American people. This doesn't mean that the American people would want QEII to become their monarch. Likewise, the Hellenes have no problem whatsoever with the children of former King Constantine but this doesn't mean that they would want them as dynasts.

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Originally Posted by orrinhoover View Post
But they must be willing to invest years towards this effort...many years.
For the sake of the argument, if Crown Prince Paul had a one in a million chance of becoming King before his marriage to Mrs Miller, the chances are now one in a quadrillion. I hope you understand that, in many ways, the Greeks are arrogant like their forebears who insisted that Πας μη Ελλην βάρβαρος [every non-Hellene is a barbarian]. It is sad to acknowledge it, since discrimination and stereotypes have no place in society, but it is true that the Greeks look upon nouveaux riches and ethnic people [and Mrs Miller fits both categories] with contempt. In fact, Mrs Miller is the constant target of ridicule by the Greek Media.
To be fair though, one of the reasons is that, in defiance of royal precedent in the Greek Royal House, former King Constantine permits Mrs Miller to be internationally addressed and referred to as Crown Princess [with or without of Greece] which is inappropriate and disrespectful το the Crown. The marriage was morganatic and thus, even though no more reigning and able to do as he pleases, former King Constantine should have either demanded that she remain Mrs Miller or, through letters patent, elevated her to the rank of Princess. To the best of my knowledge he's never done so. And, with his continued aloofness on the matter, the King has fed into the constant ridicule of Mrs Miiler and the history of the Greek Crown.
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  #33  
Old 09-17-2007, 10:04 AM
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The Greek Constitution, does not recognize titles (or courtsey titles for that matter) insofar as the citizens of Greece are concerned. To make it crystal-clear, it works like the American Constitution. As you know, the late Ronald Reagan was elevated to a knight by The Queen, thus becoming Sir Ronald Reagan, but he never used it nor could he ever use it as an American citizen.
Needless to say, that Greece would still acknowledge statutorily recognized titles of non-Greek citizens. If, say, the queen of the Belgians visited Greece, she would be referred to as HM queen Paola or as HM the queen of the Belgians.

To your second point, it is worth mentioning that dynasts or former dynasts have prerogatives or privileges from within the royal world of Gotha which are distinct and separate from the laws of the countries they reign, or used to reign, in. A former king may still grant Dynastic Family Orders (decorations) as and when he pleases. In the case of the former royal family of Greece , for instance, king Constantine has the prerogative to elevate Mrs. Miller, the morganatic wife of his son, to the rank of princess, when he so decides.
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  #34  
Old 01-17-2008, 03:07 PM
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I am not familiar with Greek constitutional law. It seems to me that the decision should be up to the people of Greece. Whatever the people of Greece decide, the former Greek royal family should accept gracefully. To me, this is the very idea of regal behavior.
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  #35  
Old 01-17-2008, 04:37 PM
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I am not familiar with Greek constitutional law. It seems to me that the decision should be up to the people of Greece. Whatever the people of Greece decide, the former Greek royal family should accept gracefully. To me, this is the very idea of regal behavior.
I believe they have accepted it. I think their most recent concerns were being allowed to visit Greece as tourists. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think the issue was the use of titles on their passports. The Greek gov't. would not acknowledge their royal titles and insisted they use a last name.

In terms of their personal feelings, I'm sure they would like to return to Greece in a royal capacity. I'm sure Constantine would like to see the dynasty secured through Pavlos and Konstantinos. I'm sure Pavlos would like to reign as King of Greece and I'm sure MC would LOVE to be known as HM Queen of Greece. But I think the family has no delusions it will ever happen.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:05 PM
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I don't think so. But I think MC is sure he will be King.
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  #37  
Old 04-21-2008, 11:52 AM
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Since King Constantine renounced his throne, I understand that Crown Prince Pavlos will be always known as Crown Prince Pavlos. King Constantine retained his title of king because he was enthroned as such but Crown Prince who has never been enthroned as such will not be able to style himslef as King Pavlos or whatever. That is how I understand it. If Pavlos styles himself as King Pavlos or whatever, then, Dr Otto von Habsburg et all should be styled as His Most Apostolic Majesty the King of Hungary, the Emperor etc.
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  #38  
Old 04-22-2008, 01:32 PM
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Philippe Egalite, I found your last posts very interesting and documented, but I do not understand why you repeatedly speak of Mrs Miller and of a morganatic marriage.
MC was not married before she got engaged to Pavlos, so she was a miss, and then it is quite usual to be called like one's husband (although in this case I understand Greece does not want them to be called "of Greece", is that it ?).
As for a morganatic marriage, what was the tradition in Greece ? (I think when Prince Michel married Marina Karella it was quite a problem for many). When you say morganatic, is it the same as unequal ?

Thank you in advance, I just want to understand your point of vue.
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:00 PM
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This is the first time I have ever read the former Marie Chantal Miller referred to as the Prince's morganatic wife. She converted to the Orthodox Church before the wedding and as a previous poster stated had never been married before.

So why would she be considered morganatic? Thanks-
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  #40  
Old 04-22-2008, 05:28 PM
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I was under the impression that the Greek royal house had got rid of this "morganatic" marriage house law. Their daughter got married to a non royal Spanish man and don't they live in Spain now ?

"Morganatic" marriage is a situation in which a royal person who is not supposed to marry a person who is below his/her station (in other words, non royal person) marries to him/her. Marie-Chantal Miller was born American and without a royal status that had the Greek royal house been tied to the old law of the morganatic marriage forbidden etc, then, the children born between Pavlos and Marie-Chantal would have been regarded as non-royal etc. However, what I understand is that since that family got rid of this regulation, Marie-Chatal's marriage is a valid one in the eyes of Pavlos's father etc.
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