The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #221  
Old 06-29-2019, 08:25 AM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 23,439
I know they had a tense relationship and often wondered is that why he made her a mere Baroness rather than a Countess or Duchess.
__________________

__________________

14th of July 1223 : Death of Philippe Auguste,King of France
Reply With Quote
  #222  
Old 06-29-2019, 08:31 AM
theroyalfly's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: N/A, Australia
Posts: 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I know they had a tense relationship and often wondered is that why he made her a mere Baroness rather than a Countess or Duchess.
Actually, if you were to ask me who is the most controversial figure of royalty/princely family of the 20th century? I think the Baroness would be part of my top 5. Imagine what she and her lover (before they got married) Jean-Charles Rey did to depose Prince Rainier III and to declare herself regent on the basis of having a son who would one day inherit the throne. It was one big of a controversy then that led to the breakup of the Sovereign Prince and her French Actress girlfriend Gisèle Pascal after rumors of her being infertile broke out.
__________________

__________________
'Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.' ~ Chinua Achebe
Reply With Quote
  #223  
Old 06-29-2019, 09:03 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
There was really no recorded ordinance or whatsoever regarding this. However, it was reported in 2009, following the release of his new diplomatic passport that he was officially recognized as Baron de Massy. I am trying to uncover the link but it's not working right now.

What is certain is that before time there use of their mother's title was not officially recognized in Monaco since they are not entitled to it.
Thank you for undertaking to trace the report. If you are able to uncover a working link at a later time, I hope that you can share it.

My guess is that the unofficial use of their mother/grandmother's title is a derivation from the historic French and Italian influence on Monaco. In the aristocracy of France and likewise in the historical Italian aristocracy, many titles were officially recognized only for the individual who received it under primogeniture, but were used unofficially even during his lifetime by his children and grandchildren who were not entitled to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I've often wondered given the volume of titles held by the Prince of Monaco why Rainier III granted his sister the lowly one of Baroness when he could have made her Countess of Polignac as an example.
As Prince Pierre was a younger son the titles held by the Polignacs did not pass to the House of Grimaldi, but the titles held by the Princes of Monaco include many titles of Marquess and Count which could have been conferred on the Princess. Perhaps Rainier III thought Countess or Marchioness was too high an honor for a sister with whom he had such an uneasy relationship?
Reply With Quote
  #224  
Old 06-29-2019, 09:13 AM
theroyalfly's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: N/A, Australia
Posts: 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thank you for undertaking to trace the report. If you are able to uncover a working link at a later time, I hope that you can share it.

My guess is that the unofficial use of their mother/grandmother's title is a derivation from the historic French and Italian influence on Monaco. In the aristocracy of France and likewise in the historical Italian aristocracy, many titles were officially recognized only for the individual who received it under primogeniture, but were used unofficially even during his lifetime by his children and grandchildren who were not entitled to it.



As Prince Pierre was a younger son the titles held by the Polignacs did not pass to the House of Grimaldi, but the titles held by the Princes of Monaco include many titles of Marquess and Count which could have been conferred on the Princess. Perhaps Rainier III thought Countess or Marchioness was too high an honor for a sister with whom he had such an uneasy relationship?

It could also be that case. But what I think is, Prince Rainier III must have only given her a title for life and not a hereditary one. It also remains a mystery yet if the "Baron de Massy" that Christian is officially using right now can be inherited by his only legitimate son Antoine de Massy. His son with the Guadeloupean, Cécile Irène Gelabale.
__________________
'Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.' ~ Chinua Achebe
Reply With Quote
  #225  
Old 06-29-2019, 10:37 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I've often wondered given the volume of titles held by the Prince of Monaco why Rainier III granted his sister the lowly one of Baroness when he could have made her Countess of Polignac as an example.
The title Prince (Princesse) and Comte (Comtesse) de Polignac belongs to the head of the paternal House of Rainier, Albert and Jacques, all male agnates of the Maison de Polignac. The actual Chef is Armand-Charles Emmanuel Marie Joseph Jules de Polignac (born 1946), 8e duc de Polignac. The current Duke has no issue. His heirs come out of a younger son of the 5e duc de Polignac.

1
Alain Aimery Edmond Armand Prince de Polignac (1940)
Son of Edmond Jean Henri Marie Prince de Polignac (1914-2010)
And of Ghislaine Charlotte Claire Paule Brinquant-Durand de Villers (1918)

2
Ludovic Alain Edmond Jean Marie Prince de Polignac (1974)
Son of Alain Aimery Edmond Armand Prince de Polignac (1940)
And of Nathalie Marie Princesse de Ligne (1948-1992)

Prince Rainier had no right to bestow the title Comtesse de Polignac on Antoinette (but she herself WAS a Polignac, of course, as Grimaldi is just the chosen name of the dynasty).

In agnatic descendance Grimaldi is extinct for centuries. Charlotte (Rainier's mother) was a De Goyon de Matignon who married a De Polignac.
Reply With Quote
  #226  
Old 06-29-2019, 11:07 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Prince Rainier had no right to bestow the title Comtesse de Polignac on Antoinette (but she herself WAS a Polignac, of course, as Grimaldi is just the chosen name of the dynasty).

In agnatic descendance Grimaldi is extinct for centuries. Charlotte (Rainier's mother) was a De Goyon de Matignon who married a De Polignac.
Grimaldi is not only the inherited name of the dynasty but the only family name of the princes and princesses of Monaco, although under current practice they do not usually use a last name. In contrast to the Netherlands, the husbands of Monegasque sovereign princesses took on the Grimaldi name and their birth names were never passed to their Grimaldi issue.
Reply With Quote
  #227  
Old 06-29-2019, 04:51 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 23,439
Wasn't Prince Jaques Ier a member of the Goyon de Matignon ,he also married a Princess of Monaco (Louise).
__________________

14th of July 1223 : Death of Philippe Auguste,King of France
Reply With Quote
  #228  
Old 06-29-2019, 07:05 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Wasn't Prince Jaques Ier a member of the Goyon de Matignon ,he also married a Princess of Monaco (Louise).
Yes, that's right. His family name was changed to Grimaldi on marriage (as noted in the ordinance which changed the name of Hereditary Princess Charlotte's husband to Grimaldi), but he remained the heir to his parents' dominions, from which are derived several titles held by the princes of Monaco, for example Count of Thorigny.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crown Prince Rupprecht of Bavaria and Princess Antoinette of Luxembourg - 1921 Marengo Historical Royal Weddings 2 11-15-2018 06:18 PM
Princess Antoinette has Died - March 18, 2011 iceflower Princely Family of Monaco 74 04-14-2011 05:33 PM
Funeral of Princess Antoinette, March 24, 2011 iceflower Princely Family of Monaco 113 04-04-2011 10:43 AM




Popular Tags
alqasimi archie mountbatten-windsor aristocracy bavaria;house;chef;luitpold;ludwig birthday celebration bracelets british royal family charles of wales christian ix countess of wessex crown prince hussein crown prince hussein's future wife crusades current events cypher denmark discussão duchess of cambridge duchess of sussex duke & duchess of cambridge; duke of cambridge duke of edinburgh duke of sussex duke of york family search felipe vi french royalty germany hamdan bin mohammed head of the house her children introduction jack brooksbank jerusalem king letter meghan markle modernization mohammed vi monaco christening monarchism nelson mandela bay official visit patron prince harry prince laurent prince of wales prince peter princess princess beatrice princess benedikte princess claire princesses princess royal prince william queen elisabeth royal royal tour rumania sarah ferguson siblings south africa spain state visit sweden trump valois viscount severn windy city wivies



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:27 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019
Jelsoft Enterprises