Monaco's succession issues


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Well yes the HRH comes from Ernst, but when, and if, Caroline ascends, she will be an HRH. I think that technically, as a Sovereign Princess, she could make an argument for the princely house of Grimaldi to be royal (like her) instead of serene since her children will take their titles from her upon her ascension. My question is whether or not it matters that her HRH is a courtesy and not a legal style.
 
Monegasque Princely Throne Succession

The Prince of Hanover is no longer in the line of succession or something but his daughter born between him and the princess Caroline is in the line of succession to our throne because she was not baptised by the rite of the Roman Catholic Church but that of the Lutheran Church (obviously anybody who becames the English monarch must be confirmed by a valid bishop who is of the Anglican Order for the Church of England does not accept the confirmation done by the Lutheran bishops, so I understand). Am I correct ?

Then, if the Princess of Hanover becomes the Sovereign Princess of Monaco and, God forbids this but if her older children somehow died before her or decided not to succeed the Princely throne of Monaco, then, does this little princess who is of Hanover at the moment have to be received in by the Roman Catholic Church in order to become the Sovereign Princess of Monaco after her mother ?

Anyway, then, for some reason, this little princess in Monaco becomes the closest person at that time to inherit the English throne, then, what will happen ?
 
Anyone who is not a Roman Catholic or marrying a Roman Catholic, and who was born of a recognized marriage, can and are in the very long list of potential successors to the British throne. That is why Princess Alexandra is in line after her older half brothers to the British throne, and her father is not. It is also the reason Peter Phillips will loose his place in the succession when he marries.

I'm not sure if the Monagasque constitution actually requires the sovereign prince to be RC, although it would likely be expected since the population is Catholic and the Grimaldi are a RC dynasty.

For Alexandra to succeed to first the Monagasque throne and then later to the British throne would require an almost global disaster as the line of succession is very long and the potential heirs live around the world.The Hannovers are not really very near the top. The little princess need not worry about changing her faith. The Norwegian royals are the first foreign family in line at the moment.
 
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I was wondering what anyone thought of Pierre as possible future Sovreign Prince?

I may be paranoid, but I feel like Andrea takes it a lot less seriously than Pierre would (and does at this point), and that it appears like Albert is "grooming" Pierre more than Andrea. I know that Andrea would be first of his siblings in line to the throne, but (as we saw with Princess Charlotte) that isn't the kind of deterant that it is in other contries afraid of revolution. I mean, it seems as if Andrea has been missing from a lot of official functions lately, and that Pierre seems to tag along to Albert a lot (possibly because he is the only father he has only known though), and Albert and Caroline seem to give him a few responsibilities that I've never seen them give to Andrea... Please correct me if I am way off base...:flowers:
 
I see exactly what you're getting at, randomlyKeira.

Pierre is able to active because Milan isn't all that far from Monaco (even though Andrea could fly over if he truly wanted to). That, and he seems to more interested in the events than his older brother despite the fact that Andrea should be more visible than him.

It seems that Andrea does not want the resposiblity that may fall on his shoulders depending on which way Albert swings. And by "swings", I mean his decisions. We all know that if Albert has a legitimite son, the Casiraghis (and little Hanover) are knocked out of succesion. We also all know that if Albert should decide to not have anymore children for whatever reason, Andrea will be unceremoniously thrust into the spotlight even more so as the apparent heir after Caroline. He should be stepping up more than the little that he has been doing lately. Pierre looks to be picking up his slack and keeping his own image relatively clean making him be seen as a more favorable candidate as the future Prince of Monaco.

At the same time, Andrea today can be drastically different from Andrea tomorrow and only time will tell. Right now, we're just jumping to conclusions but hey, they're good conclusions! Discussion is good.
 
oxygen said:
I see exactly what you're getting at, randomlyKeira.

Pierre is able to active because Milan isn't all that far from Monaco (even though Andrea could fly over if he truly wanted to). That, and he seems to more interested in the events than his older brother despite the fact that Andrea should be more visible than him.

It seems that Andrea does not want the resposiblity that may fall on his shoulders depending on which way Albert swings. And by "swings", I mean his decisions. We all know that if Albert has a legitimite son, the Casiraghis (and little Hanover) are knocked out of succesion. We also all know that if Albert should decide to not have anymore children for whatever reason, Andrea will be unceremoniously thrust into the spotlight even more so as the apparent heir after Caroline. He should be stepping up more than the little that he has been doing lately. Pierre looks to be picking up his slack and keeping his own image relatively clean making him be seen as a more favorable candidate as the future Prince of Monaco.

At the same time, Andrea today can be drastically different from Andrea tomorrow and only time will tell. Right now, we're just jumping to conclusions but hey, they're good conclusions! Discussion is good.
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Albert would need to have a legitimate child not necessarily a son.
 
P-Albert can change the rules of succession just like his father did, non? If he really wished later on could not his son or daughter could have the seat or is this rule unchangeable about "legitimacy"?
 
It is possible, but probably unlikely. One of the biggest things that Albert promised upon succession was to uphold his fathers morals, and carry on what his father had done in the country, so it would be very contradictory to change a law that he made, wouldn't it?

IMHO I feel that Albert will never get married. I think he feels that Caroline and the Casiraghi's will be great for the country, and that they would make great Princes/ses. I think that the Casiraghi kids have in a way been raised to one day possibly run the country if it came to it, and after all of that Abert might not want to jepordize it by having a legitimate child that might not love the country the way he does, and the way that Caroline and the Casiraghi's do... again only opinions...

But I think that Pierre seems to take it more seriously and that he is closer to Albert and to Monaco than Andrea or Charlotte... And I think that Pierre gets a bit of a bum rap for being sort of a "play boy", but I think he's really a smart and good guy...
 
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You can’t skip over an older child, in the line of succession, merely because you feel that a younger son/daughter would do a better job. If that were, the case, the current Queen of England’s father would never have been King (another brother would have succeeded instead). It is a cross that must, most unfairly, be born by the eldest son, or daughter as the case maybe. I think it is particularly unfair, if like Andrea, and QEII, you were not born to the position, which later befalls you.

I don’t know if Albert will ever marry, but I think it may be better for Andrea, Charlotte and Pierre, if he did, and had a, legitimate, child. I’m leaving Alexandra out of all this, because for some reason I don’t think it will ever matter to her, either way.
 
poppy7 said:
You can’t skip over an older child, in the line of succession, merely because you feel that a younger son/daughter would do a better job. If that were, the case, the current Queen of England’s father would never have been King (another brother would have succeeded instead). It is a cross that must, most unfairly, be born by the eldest son, or daughter as the case maybe. I think it is particularly unfair, if like Andrea, and QEII, you were not born to the position, which later befalls you.
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Monaco is not England. The Monaco constitution allows an heir to waive succession. Princess Caroline is the first in line of succession. If she were to become princess, then any of her children can waive succession or not. The English translation of the constitution can be read here. Succession is discussed in Article 10.
 
Weren't the Monaco succession rules changed so that Caroline could take over in the event that Albert hadn't married and born a legitimate heir. So, if he doesn't marry Charlene, or at all, and has no legitimate heirs, would Caroline can waive and allow Andrea to become ruler of Monaco - I wonder, however, if in his present (lost) state, she would decide to rule until he's ready, or until Albert marries and has legitimate heirs.....it'll be interesting to see this all play out....
 
She could waiver all she likes, but it would be highly unusual for Andrea to then waiver himself. I don't honestly think this is an issue. Albert is, tradegy forbidden, not going to take his leave of this world for a nother twenty plus odd years. Whatever is going on with Andrea right now, and lets not forget he is very young, will be a distant memory by then. In any case Albert still has time to have children.
 
All I meant by my comment of Pierre possibly being Prince was that he seems the "fitter" brother at this point, and if it continues then it might just be more prosperous for Monaco if someone with a more stable be Prince(whoever that may be, it may be Louis!), when that comes, which at this time seems long time down the line. Especilly because Monaco's abdication and succession laws aren't the same as here in England where if someone were to abdicate, a possible revolution and abolution could possibly happen.

I was born in Monaco, so I'm just saying what I think seems better for the country. I'd hate to see it flounder to how it was before Rainier (I'm not saying Andrea or anyone else woudl do that, it's just a comment).

But we don't know, Albert might surprise people like me and actually get married and have kids.
 
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There was talk, in 1937, that another brother (namely the then Duke of Kent) would become King. He was socially, a more confident and able person, than his brother, who was practically crippled by social shyness and doubt. It was not to be however. In all honesty I think an absolute Monarch, in this day and age, is a bit of a gamble. For stability sake however, there cannot be too much shriking of responsibility. None of them, given the choice I think, would ever succeed. At somepoint one of them has to stand up and take responsibility, and do their duty. I don't think Pierre is a better option than Andrea to tell the truth. True Andrea doesn't look well at the moment, but it will surely be decades before the matter of succession will be discussed, and he seems, on the whole, quieter then Pierre; who seems a right party animal. Then again we are talking about people in their early twenties, and all they do is party anyway. I'd give it 10 years to see what their personalities are like.
 
Line of succesion

Who does the principality pass to if he has no heir?
 
Succession

lwbohm said:
Who does the principality pass to if he has no heir?
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First to his older sister, HRH Princess Caroline of Monaco/Hanover, then to each of her children in turn, male promigenture. Should her four children die without legitimate hers, the crown devolve onto HSH Princess Stephanie and her legitimate children.
 
lwbohm said:
Who does the principality pass to if he has no heir?
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Just in case no one else responds--I've read that it would be the next oldest male, which is I think his big sister's son. The Prince often says he's going to have children, so there you are.

I'd like to weigh in on CW re her strength. I totally agree with someone who mentioned that she has been an olympic trouper. So we saw from the beginning "opening scenes" that she is competitive and territorial. Also, I think she gaged her chances and her relationship. No one knows what she was being told by her suitior. So she's hanging in there. She might not even care about the who/what/where/when aspect. Competitive people often care only about their goals. We don't know what hers are.
 
Thank you so it goes to caroline?
Dis they recently change some rule about sucession?
 
lwbohm said:
Thank you so it goes to caroline?
Dis they recently change some rule about sucession?
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I suggest you look at my posts (305 & 342) in this thread for the complete answer to your questions. If you think of 2002 as recent, yes, there has been a recent change in the rules of succession.
 
Monaco's constitution was changed to prevent any challenges to the throne and to prevent any confusion as to succession. SM Douglas has provided links. Please read them. Basically if Albert produces NO legitimate heirs the throne will pass to Caroline and then her children. She may waive her right to succeed Albert in favor of her children. If they also waive their rights then it goes to Stephanie. If she waives her rights it goes to her children. As far as Albert's current two children they are not in line to the throne. In order for them to be legitimate heirs Albert would have to marry either Nicole or Tamara which doesn't seem likely at this point. Any questions? Please seek out the Monaco constitution for a direct source.
 
hibou said:
In order for them to be legitimate heirs Albert would have to marry either Nicole or Tamara which doesn't seem likely at this point.
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Just adding to the "what ifs" Albert does not have to marry either mother of his illegitimate children. All he has to do is adopt either one or both. The same as his grandmother Charlotte was adopted by her father when it was clear that, that Albert would have no direct legitimate heirs and the principality would become a province of France. She because his daughter legally and succeeded to the throne.
 
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Odette, it's obvious that you haven't checked out the links in my posts (305 & 342). They explain very clearly that you are incorrect.
 
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Rainier eliminated the adoption issue. Could you all Please read SM Doulgas's links!!! Thanks!!
 
smdouglas said:
Odette, it's obvious that you haven't checked out the links in my posts (305 & 342). They explain very clearly that you are incorrect.
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I have re read the article 10. IF P Albert adopts his illegitimate children they become his natural and legal children and they can succeed him. At the time of that imaginary adoption the children will become Monegasques (Although others can become Monegasques through their mothers only but there is the Charlotte precedence)
The article is silent in the case where the Prince "Adopts" it only makes reference to legitimate heirs and the line of succession.
It is possible like most legal documents that we both read the same contract and can still interpret it differently. That is what courts are for.
 
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Odette said:
I have re read the article 10. IF P Albert adopts his illegitimate children they become his natural and legal children and they can succeed him. At the time of that imaginary adoption the children will become Monegasques (Although others can become Monegasques through their mothers only but there is the Charlotte precedence)
The article is silent in the case where the Prince "Adopts" it only makes reference to legitimate heirs and the line of succession.
It is possible like most legal documents that we both read the same contract and can still interpret it differently. That is what courts are for.
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Odette, Rainier changed the constitution to avoid this situation. There is no possibility of Albert adopting anyone. He has to marry the mother of the child in order for the child to be a rightful heir to the throne.
 
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Odette said:
I have re read the article 10. IF P Albert adopts his illegitimate children they become his natural and legal children and they can succeed him.
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The article that I referred you to states:

"A law of 2 April 2002 modified article 10. Adoption is now ruled out, and the succession passes, upon death or abdication, to the direct legitimate descent of the previous prince, failing which to his siblings and their descent,..."

If that doesn't satisfy you, the English translation of the constitution (Article 10) states:

"The succession to the throne, opened by death or abdication, takes place direct and legitimate issue of the reigning prince, by order of primogeniture with priority given to males within the same degree of kinship.

"In the absence of direct legitimate issue, the succession passes to the brothers and sisters of the reigning prince and their direct legitimate descendants, by order of primogeniture with priority given to males within the same degree of kinship...."

The 2002 constitution changes the following from the 1962 version of the constitution:

"The succession to the throne, when opened by death or abdication, takes place within the direct and legitimate descent of the reigning Prince, by primogeniture, with precedence of males within the same degree of kinship. In the absence of a legitimate descendant, the adopted child or the legitimate descendants thereof are able to succeed."

Thus the recent changes in the consitution eliminates the possibility of succession by an adopted child.

The term, direct and legitimate issue, means only the children born in a marriage.

Any interpretations of the constitution is done by the Prince or the Regency Council acting on behalf of the Prince - not the courts.
 
Thank you SM Douglas. I must have read the pre 2002 article. I apologize it is crystal clear he cannot adopt either one of his illegitimate children.
Hibou thank you as well. It is good to have people like you to learn the facts from.
 
What a mess. Why doesn't Albert get off his butt and do his duty?? If not by Charlene then by SOMEONE??

I think we must face it, the guy wants to keep his options open in case he wants to put Wittstock out to pasture someday in favor of a fresher face.

It's time for Moneqasques to start lighting candles and hoping that Andrea gets himself together(if he is indeed ill) and marries his heiress.

He seems to not be afraid of commitment.
 
Odette said:
Thank you SM Douglas. I must have read the pre 2002 article. I apologize it is crystal clear he cannot adopt either one of his illegitimate children.
Hibou thank you as well. It is good to have people like you to learn the facts from.
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You are welcome Odette. It can get quite confusing. It took me a while to sort it all out.
 
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