Monaco's succession issues

[Lumutqueen]

Isnt' there another daughter of Princess Stephanie missing from the list?

As Camille's parents never married she is not in line for the throne.

 

[Kotroman]

Wikipedia provides the line of succession here. It's accurate. The pertinent portion of the Monaco constitution is provided (in English) here.

I know. What I said complies perfectly with both

 

[LadyMacAlpine]

If that's so, Jazmin (being born of adultery) has no chance whatsoever of succeeding to the Monegasque throne, unlike her half-brother Alexandre. Alexandre has a slight chance of succeeding in the event that his father marries his mother one day, though he is much more likely to be hit by a meteor

A legal separation in CA is almost the same as a divorce. The only thing you can't do when you get one is remarry. David and Tamara were divorced after Jazmin was born and David took a DNA test. They weren't married in the Catholic Church either. Its all been discussed in the old threads.

 

[Kotroman]

Almost the same does not amount to the same, though. The fact that you cannot remarry indicates that the marriage is not yet dissolved. The fact that they divorced after Jazmin's birth doesn't change the fact that they were married (albeit seperated) at the moment of her birth. I'm not sure what's David's DNA testing got to do with this.

Now, about the Catholic Church marriage thing - is it required for a marriage to be deemed legal in the Principality of Monaco? I doubt so, as that would be against the principle of seperation of church and state.

 

[LadyMacAlpine]

In order for the divorce to be granted and David not pay child support he took a DNA test to prove he wasn't the father. I would take it that that is the only reason the divorce wasn't done before Jazmin's birth. David is a Tabloid reporter so I'm sure details can be found in old copies.

 

[NGalitzine]

Albert has the title of Marquis de Baux until there is an heir apparent. Caroline was heiress presumptive at her birth until the birth of Albert but her father never gave her any of his noble titles. At the moment there is no heir apparent who would normally receive the title of Marquis de Baux.

 

[Artemisia]

Now, about the Catholic Church marriage thing - is it required for a marriage to be deemed legal in the Principality of Monaco? I doubt so, as that would be against the principle of seperation of church and state.

It isn't; in fact, only civil weddings are recognised as legal in Monaco.

 

[LadyMacAlpine]

Now, about the Catholic Church marriage thing - is it required for a marriage to be deemed legal in the Principality of Monaco? I doubt so, as that would be against the principle of seperation of church and state.

I forgot to answer this part. In order for a person to ascend to the Throne in Monaco they need to be Roman Catholic. Like in Britain the Sovereign must belong to the Church of England, nor can they marry a Roman Catholic.

If you go back in the thread you should find discussions about Caroline needing an annulment from Junot from the Church so her children would be legitimate heirs to the Throne. In the eyes of the Church even though she was legally divorced and legally married to Casiraghi the Church only recognized her marriage to Junot.

 

[NGalitzine]

If you go back in the thread you should find discussions about Caroline needing an annulment from Junot from the Church so her children would be legitimate heirs to the Throne.IQUOTE]

How do you reconcile that with Stephanie's 2 eldest children being in the line of succession when she only had a civil marriage. The civil marriage legitimized her children according to the laws of Monaco. They are also Roman Catholic. Carolines children were also legitimate heirs according to the laws of Monaco because of their parents civil marriage regardless of the opinion of the church which apparently did not have a problem with them being baptized in the RC faith before the annulment. The annulment may have legitimized her children in the eyes of the Church but even without that they were legitimate heirs to the throne.

 

[rosana]

I believe the press is responsible for this mess as regards succession issues. I remember reading that Caroline needed the annulment so that her children would be legitmate. I think now that was not true at all. She wanted the annulment because she wanted to marry Casiraghi, for personal reasons, because she is a Catholic, but not because that way her children could inherit. In fact, Louis never married Charlotte´s mother, Marie Juliette Louvet, and she enherited anyway. The Constitution does not state that the heir has to be born in a Catholic marriage.

La Constitution de la Principauté / Les Institutions / Gouvernement et Institutions / Portail du Gouvernement - Monaco

 

[LadyMacAlpine]

I believe the press is responsible for this mess as regards succession issues. I remember reading that Caroline needed the annulment so that her children would be legitmate. I think now that was not true at all. She wanted the annulment because she wanted to marry Casiraghi, for personal reasons, because she is a Catholic, but not because that way her children could inherit. In fact, Louis never married Charlotte´s mother, Marie Juliette Louvet, and she enherited anyway. The Constitution does not state that the heir has to be born in a Catholic marriage.

La Constitution de la Principauté / Les Institutions / Gouvernement et Institutions / Portail du Gouvernement - Monaco

Charlotte was adopted which the Church supports.

The Catholic Church does not permit divorce for valid sacramental marriages. In fact a valid sacramental marriage is impossible to dissolve thereby making divorce not possible if the marriage was sacramental.

Perhaps, but only if you have received an annulment (which means your previous marriage was not considered a valid sacrament). If you receive a civil divorce, but no annulment, then you are still married to the other person in the eyes of the Church and would be committing adultery if you married another.

About Catholics

My ex wasn't allowed to remarry in the Catholic Church since his first marriage was a valid sacrament. He left the church because of it and he had 2 children besides ours. When I converted I was in classes with several people who had a civil wedding and were waiting for an annulment before they could complete the process to join the church and their marriage to be blessed.

You can find following in several articles and books.

However, because her first marriage was not annulled by the Vatican until 1992, Caroline's three children with Casiraghi (sons Andrea and Pierre and daughter Charlotte), were not considered "legitimate" in Roman Catholic Monaco, and were technically disqualified from Monaco's royal succession.

Princess Caroline of Monaco Biography - Facts, Birthday, Life Story - Biography.com

Until 2002, the crown of Monaco could only pass to the direct descendants (including adopted children) of the reigning prince. This meant that Princesses Caroline and Stephanie would lose their places in line at the moment of Prince Albert's accession.

Adoption was taken out. Stephanie's children were christened in the Church and she married to Daniel putting their children in line. You don't have to actually be married within the church but it is preferred they can bless a marriage which recognizes it as I witnessed in the classes.

 

[rosana]

Princess Charlotte was illegitimate for the church, she was not adopted into a Catholic marriage. It is the same as a child born out of wedlock. She was adopted in 1918 and Prince Louis married Ghislaine in the 40´s. IMO even if Monaco is a Catholic state, it was never required that he be born in a Catholic marriage.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

If they intend that, they will have married already without anyone knowing (highly unlikely).. the baby is expected any day now, so they most likely are not marrying before birth now..

So, no succession rights for the baby. What a shame, Andrea doesn't know his duties with Monaco? (just like Prince Albert.)

Couldn't a simple civil wedding solve the problem?

 

[Artemisia]

If Andrea and Tatiana marry any time after the baby's birth, the child will be in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

If Andrea and Tatiana marry any time after the baby's birth, the child will be in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne.

There are so many lines of succession, sometimes I get confused with them.

Thanks for reminding me.

 

[Ready4Royalty]

The baby's succession rights pend on if they marry, not when. The child will become legitimized (and thus in line to the throne) upon Andrea & Tatiana's marriage. Whenever that is (before or after doesn't matter). I'm sure they know what they're doing.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Sometimes I wonder where is the sense of duty Monaco Royals would have to have with the succession to the Throne.

Andrea isn't a Prince, but he's second in line, so, some sense of duty would be a natural thing for him to have.

 

[NGalitzine]

^^^^^
Well he has, potentially, supplied another heir. Some might consider that a duty,

 

[Ready4Royalty]

I think he does have a sense of duty appropriate to his presumptive status. It has to be a difficult situation to be in, especially now that Albert is married and is in prime position to produce a legitimate heir. But even before that, I believe Andrea has been being subtly "groomed" in the background for his possible role. His education degrees are good evidence to that. He takes on more charities and official duties than his siblings. If he began doing outright "heir to the heir" things, that could reflect poorly on his uncle (to the public).

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

^^^^^
Well he has, potentially, supplied another heir. Some might consider that a duty,

The baby is not a heir until Andrea gets married with Tatiana.

 

[Lee-Z]

The baby is not a heir until Andrea gets married with Tatiana.

This discussion is going no-where... you obviously feel that a couple should marry be fore having children because children should be born in wedlock,
These two have announced they will marry in 2013 but right now, I'm sure their first priority is to have this baby safe and sound into this world...
After that, within a few months, they will do the wedding thing
and that's all there is to it...

 

[NGalitzine]

The baby is not a heir until Andrea gets married with Tatiana.

That is why I used the word "potentially"......if he marries Tatiana in a civil ceremony either before or after the birth the child will be in the line of succession. If they wish they can have an RC ceremony any time after that although it is not a requirement for succession rights as only the civil ceremony has any legal status.

 

[GracieGiraffe]

If Andrea and Tatiana want the child to be a possible heir, they will marry. If they want to spare the child, it's possible they won't.

In common law countries, such as Britain and the U.S. (basically countries that spun off from Britain), whenever the parents marry, it legitimizes the child, even if the child is 40 when the parents do so. However, nowadays such legitimization is meaningless for all intents and purposes unless one is talking about inheriting a throne.

Monaco no doubt is a civil law country, and I am assuming the legitimization laws are the same, but I'm not sure.

 

[AristoCat]

If Charlotte marries and Andrea does not, I wonder if Caroline will start hovering more over Charlotte because of the fact that despite the lack of title, Charlotte could end up a Princess of Monaco with her child as the heir.

 

[Ish]

Regardless of the status of his child, Andrea still comes before Charlotte in the line of succession. If he doesn't get married and inherits the throne then what will happen is just another situation like what we have now; head of state whose heir presumptive is his sister, who can expect to be succeeded by her eldest child.

In the event that Caroline becomes head of state I would suspect that her children (and male-line, legitimate grandchildren) would end up getting titles as well.

 

[NGalitzine]

Both Andrea and Pierre and their legitimate children come before Charlotte in the line of succession

 

[Ish]

Both Andrea and Pierre and their legitimate children come before Charlotte in the line of succession

I always forget about Pierre...

 

[AristoCat]

I wonder what sort of Princess of Monaco Tatiana would end up making. Certainly I see Caroline preferring that her children end up reigning. With herself coming first of course.

What do you guys think of Caroline's chances of becoming Princess of Monaco?

 

[Lumutqueen]

Well that's quite easily answered, if Albert doesn't have an heir Caroline will inherit the throne on his death. However it's widely thought she would pass the throne directly to her son.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Its a long way off ,Albert & Charlene may still have children yet,but then again we never know what may happen.