Monaco's succession issues

[Juliet]

Originally Posted by Laviollette

If Caroline died before Albert before he fathered a legitimate heir, Andrea would be in the same position as heir apparent and would be titled as such. source: Wikipedia - see Future succession http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of..._of_succession

I don't believe that is correct. I think Andrea would only be heir apparent if Caroline succeeded Albert. As long as Albert is still alive, there is still the possibility that he may father a legitimate child, so Andrea can not be heir apparent in that situation.

Originally Posted by Suonymona

But if Andrea had no legitimate children (or illegitimate-heaven forbid!), Pierre would be Andrea's heir apparent and Charlotte the heir presumptive. This is where I think they all would be titled.

No, Pierre would be heir presumptive in that situation.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Juliet

I don't believe that is correct. I think Andrea would only be heir apparent if Caroline succeeded Albert. As long as Albert is still alive, there is still the possibility that he may father a legitimate child, so Andrea can not be heir apparent in that situation.

Yes Juliet, you are correct. The Wikipedia entry under Line of Succession to the Monegasque Throne states that currently Albert's successor is Heiress Presumptive and her two sons are heirs presumptive.
Under the heading "Future Succession" in the same entry it states if Caroline gains the throne (after Albert's death without legitimate issue) Andrea becomes Heir Apparent.

While ever Prince Albert lives there is a possibility he could produce a legitimate heir, so Caroline and her children etc can only be heirs or heiresses presumptive.

[Kyra]

Originally Posted by Suonymona

Laviollette

Thanks for the clarification.

The only way the crown can pass directly from Albert to Andrea is for Caroline to die before Albert produces heirs.

Should that occur (or any set of circumstances in which Andrea becomes reigning Prince), Andrea and his descendants become the direct line of succession. Stephanie and her family would drop off as would Pierre, Charlotte and Alexandra. But if Andrea had no legitimate children (or illegitimate-heaven forbid!), Pierre would be Andrea's heir apparent and Charlotte the heir presumptive. This is where I think they all would be titled.

But let's give it another ten years before we figure out all the successional possibilities. I feel like I'm learning chess with all the combinations!

Ann

Caroline could abdicate in favor of Andrea that would be one way it could pass from Albert to Andrea.

[julianneneville]

The one thing that I have not seen mentioned in this topic is what if none of either PC's or PS's children want to be the monarch? They have enough money without it, given that their free wheeling lifestyle would change greatly. And, although I readily admit that there is a lot of speculation about the formal schooling of these legitimate heirs, I don't really get the impression that any of the PC's children are "in training" for the throne. And I think that PS would be totally against any of her children assuming that position. Just something worth thinking about. Perhaps PA is in a bit of spot on this issue.

[Grace]

I think when the Constitution was changed the whole family was consulted; Rainier didn't just decide to change it overnight: it was a long processus that lasted years. So I think Caro and Steph (and also the kids) were consulted back then and accepted to have a role in the life of the Principality. If they changed their minds, and all 6 (Camille is excluded) abdicated, Antoinette and her heirs would be next in line, so the throne would go to them. No worries, a Heir will come out if needed!

[Toledo]

Caroline and her niece Jazmin Grace, what do they have in common? Guess...

In all this talk of what is right and what is not all I see is that the loser happens to be a person born first but born woman: Princess Caroline. Had Monaco's constitution been more up to date (as in we are in a whole different millenium) the older sibling should be the heir of the throne. If Monaco was like Sweden Albert would be the Grimaldi's Prince Carl so he can do with his life whatever he pleases.
Caroline is the one being short changed on this deal discussing Jazmin Grace's hypotetical rights over her little half brother. Caroline, like Jazmin Grace, is the older sibling (known to us so far, but I'm crossing my fingers and rolling my eyes now)

Even the posibility of legitimization of Jazmin Grace and Alexandre brings memories of the other thread discussing equality of sexes, the thread on Japan having a woman for Empress. If you think of it, the events in Monaco are somewhat similar to Japan's. The basics are a woman being considered less appropiate for a crown (real or hypotetical) than her younger male sibling or any other male relative like in the case of Japan.

[Suonymona]

Maybe Albert should change the Constitution and retroactivate to make Caroline the heir.
Then he can step aside and let Caroline and her offspring be the Princely Family.
Finally Albert could do what he wanted and no one would care how many kids (that couldn't get the throne) he sired.

Ann

[sebastian]

Originally Posted by Suonymona

Maybe Albert should change the Constitution and retroactivate to make Caroline the heir.
Then he can step aside and let Caroline and her offspring be the Princely Family.
Finally Albert could do what he wanted and no one would care how many kids (that couldn't get the throne) he sired.

Ann

Sorry , 'let Caroline and her offspring be the princely family' ?
First: Albert doesn't want this, Caroline doesn't ... and how nice to forget about Stephanie and her children in that whole thing .

Sorry, but what are you guys all talking about?! Monaco's succession is fixed. Albert was trained and prepared to be Monaco's ruler. It is his job and he's the best man for it. It's his life, he was meant for this ever since he was a baby. He has all his family around to participate and take over several duties. They all play their part in this. Why sould things be changed?

Really, most of you guys on these boards ( and others ) make me wonder and shake my head .... a lot ... lately....sorry, really....

[kimebear]

Either of Alberts illegitimate kids could be made the heir to the throne. He doesn't have to marry their mothers. He just has to adopt one of the kids. The 1918 Ordinance allows him to adopt over the age of 50 as long as the child is 18 or younger.

[Grace]

The Constitution was revised in 2002 and adoption is not an option anymore for succession...adoption was good solution not to estinguish the dinasty when collaterals could not inherit the throne; now that they can (Caro, Steph and children), adoption has been ruled out as it is not necessary anymore.

[kimebear]

Originally Posted by Grace

The Constitution was revised in 2002 and adoption is not an option anymore for succession...adoption was good solution not to estinguish the dinasty when collaterals could not inherit the throne; now that they can (Caro, Steph and children), adoption has been ruled out as it is not necessary anymore.

Yes, sorry this has been pointed out to me. The info I was reading must be out of date. Its unfortunate though as it could have prevented what may be a big problem in a family already troubled with sibling rivalry.

[Grace]

No need to apologize at all; I'm glad if I could be helpful.
Anyway, I think the family is more affected by misunderstandings or disagreement (sometimes) than rivalry. I don't really think Albert,Caro and Steph would ever fight for the throne...plus, after the revision in 2002, there's no room for fighting and things are pretty clear: if Albert doesn't have a legitimate heir, the throne goes to Caro, and then to Andrea, and there is nothing to argue about. Plus, I'm quite sure all three siblings were consulted by Rainier before the Constitutional changed and agreed to it...

Kisses

[mwhite3182]

while Albert was still young (under 18) would Princess Grace have been ruler?

[HRH Elizabeth]

No, the wife of the ruler would not inherit the throne. It would probably have gone to Albert with Grace as regent, although they might have picked a different regent.

I am a bit confused though as to why Jasmin has been shortchanged? Neither she nor her half-brother will ever inherit the thorne, regardless of gender.

[Beatrice]

The only sure is that Andrea will inherit the throne!:w00t2: :w00t2: :w00t2:

[magnik]

Yes, If Albert wouldn't produce a legal heir or wouldn't change the constitution/succession...

[seto]

Originally Posted by HRH Elizabeth

No, the wife of the ruler would not inherit the throne. It would probably have gone to Albert with Grace as regent, although they might have picked a different regent.

I am a bit confused though as to why Jasmin has been shortchanged? Neither she nor her half-brother will ever inherit the thorne, regardless of gender.

Basically they are considered illegitimate and cannot inherit the throne. They also do not legally carry alberts last nme.

[sandsla]

Originally Posted by magnik

Yes, If Albert wouldn't produce a legal heir or wouldn't change the constitution/succession...

I think it would first go to Caroline & she could pass it to her son if she wished?

[Suonymona]

That is correct sandsla.

As things stand now, should Albert die without LEGITIMATE sire, Caroline (should she still be living) will inherit the throne. Mostly likely she would then pass it to her oldest son Andrea.

Albert could change things, however, it would be a long process and would put the throne in peril if he died without the change being ratified.

Rainier was very smart creating the changes he did when he did.

Ann

[TrustWorthy]

Originally Posted by seto

Basically they are considered illegitimate and cannot inherit the throne. They also do not legally carry alberts last nme.

PA can do anything he wants regarding Jazmin and Alex -- those so sure about her NOT being his daughter are the very same saying she will NEVER take the throne. Time will tell...

Also, her name IS Jazmin Grace Grimaldi -- Lacoste was NEVER quoted as saying Jazmin Grace could not use the Grimaldi name -- that's newspaper myth.