Monaco's succession issues

[pinklady1991]

PA can change all that to suit his wishes.
Hence, Princess Charlotte, mother of Prince Rainier III, and
grandmother of Prince Albert II.

Whatever He (PA) wants He Shall Get

I thought some deal was struck so that Charlotte wouldn't technically inherit the throne...something about it going to her husband. (There was a reigning princess some time in the 1800s I think -- can someone refresh my memory?) I believe Charlotte's husband had to agree to change his name to Grimaldi (thus the continuation of the name to Antoinette and Rainier) but once they were divorced he changed his name back to the Comte de Polignac.

True, whatever PA wants, he will get. Let's see that when and if he marries, how many children and what gender they will be. Right now this is all hypothetical...interesting, but hypothetical.

 

[Suonymona]

I don't think PA will change the constitution to favor a first-born legitimate daughter. Too many people will argue that if he were to do that, it should be to legitimize his oldest son.

Were the daughter the only legitimate child, she would become the reigning Sovereign Princess. I think then she most likely would change the constitution to something similar to Sweden's (which resulted in Crown Princess Victoria).

However, until the daughter had children, Caroline would still be heir presumptive.

Ann

 

[acid_rain3075]

I don't think PA will change the constitution to favor a first-born legitimate daughter. Too many people will argue that if he were to do that, it should be to legitimize his oldest son.

Were the daughter the only legitimate child, she would become the reigning Sovereign Princess. I think then she most likely would change the constitution to something similar to Sweden's (which resulted in Crown Princess Victoria).

However, until the daughter had children, Caroline would still be heir presumptive.

Ann

There is only one way for Prince Alberts eldest son to be legitimized, and that can only be accomplished by Prince Albert marring Alexandre's mother. Clearly that seems unlikely! Now even if he did try to change the constitution to a full linear succession, I don't see why anyone would try to try to make Alexandre legitimate. Mainly because the current constitution is clear when it comes to legitimate and illegitimate children! But I don't think its completely clear when it come to female heir thing or whatever! Thats just my take on the issue of course, but I maybe be completely wrong so please feel free to correct me!!!!

 

[Laviollette]

I don't think PA will change the constitution to favor a first-born legitimate daughter. Too many people will argue that if he were to do that, it should be to legitimize his oldest son.

Were the daughter the only legitimate child, she would become the reigning Sovereign Princess. I think then she most likely would change the constitution to something similar to Sweden's (which resulted in Crown Princess Victoria).

However, until the daughter had children, Caroline would still be heir presumptive.

Ann

Why would it matter what people argue? If Albert wants to change the constitution for him and his wife's first-born, regardless if she's a daughter, to succeed him, he'll change the constitution. And, hypothetically, if he and the princess of mc had a daughter under the current constitution, that daughter would become the heiress presumptive, in front of Caroline. Only a son born to the union would displace the daughter as heir.

 

[Suonymona]

If Albert and bride only had a daughter, there would be no need for a constitutional change to that of the eldest child without regard to sex. She would be the only (legitimate) heir.

Yes, the daughter would be first the automatic heir apparent and moved to heir presumptive should a younger brother be born (as Caroline was when Albert was born).

To clarify: I meant when the [only/firstborn] daughter became Sovereign Princess and ruler of Monaco, until she had children, Caroline would be her heir presumptive.

Ann

 

[Avalon]

it's a funny thread though. Prince Albert doesn't have any legitimate children yet, leave alone a daughter and a son, and we are discussing which of them should be the heir.

 

[Suonymona]

We're bored.

Albert isn't giving us anything else to clack over.

Ann

 

[tbhrc]

I have merged serveral threads, all with the same topic - the Succession issue in Monaco. Now everthing related to that subject can be posted in this thread.

tbhrc
Monaco Moderator

 

[Suonymona]

tbhrc

I'd forgotten whereall some of these came from. Great blend!

Ann

 

[Juliet]

If Caroline died before Albert before he fathered a legitimate heir, Andrea would be in the same position as heir apparent and would be titled as such. source: Wikipedia - see Future succession http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_Monegasque_Throne#Current_line_of_succession

I don't believe that is correct. I think Andrea would only be heir apparent if Caroline succeeded Albert. As long as Albert is still alive, there is still the possibility that he may father a legitimate child, so Andrea can not be heir apparent in that situation.

But if Andrea had no legitimate children (or illegitimate-heaven forbid!), Pierre would be Andrea's heir apparent and Charlotte the heir presumptive. This is where I think they all would be titled.

No, Pierre would be heir presumptive in that situation.

 

[Warren]

I don't believe that is correct. I think Andrea would only be heir apparent if Caroline succeeded Albert. As long as Albert is still alive, there is still the possibility that he may father a legitimate child, so Andrea can not be heir apparent in that situation.

Yes Juliet, you are correct. The Wikipedia entry under Line of Succession to the Monegasque Throne states that currently Albert's successor is Heiress Presumptive and her two sons are heirs presumptive.
Under the heading "Future Succession" in the same entry it states if Caroline gains the throne (after Albert's death without legitimate issue) Andrea becomes Heir Apparent.

While ever Prince Albert lives there is a possibility he could produce a legitimate heir, so Caroline and her children etc can only be heirs or heiresses presumptive.

 

[Kyra]

Laviollette

Thanks for the clarification.

The only way the crown can pass directly from Albert to Andrea is for Caroline to die before Albert produces heirs.

Should that occur (or any set of circumstances in which Andrea becomes reigning Prince), Andrea and his descendants become the direct line of succession. Stephanie and her family would drop off as would Pierre, Charlotte and Alexandra. But if Andrea had no legitimate children (or illegitimate-heaven forbid!), Pierre would be Andrea's heir apparent and Charlotte the heir presumptive. This is where I think they all would be titled.

But let's give it another ten years before we figure out all the successional possibilities. I feel like I'm learning chess with all the combinations!

Ann

Caroline could abdicate in favor of Andrea that would be one way it could pass from Albert to Andrea.

 

[julianneneville]

The one thing that I have not seen mentioned in this topic is what if none of either PC's or PS's children want to be the monarch? They have enough money without it, given that their free wheeling lifestyle would change greatly. And, although I readily admit that there is a lot of speculation about the formal schooling of these legitimate heirs, I don't really get the impression that any of the PC's children are "in training" for the throne. And I think that PS would be totally against any of her children assuming that position. Just something worth thinking about. Perhaps PA is in a bit of spot on this issue.

 

[Grace]

I think when the Constitution was changed the whole family was consulted; Rainier didn't just decide to change it overnight: it was a long processus that lasted years. So I think Caro and Steph (and also the kids) were consulted back then and accepted to have a role in the life of the Principality. If they changed their minds, and all 6 (Camille is excluded) abdicated, Antoinette and her heirs would be next in line, so the throne would go to them. No worries, a Heir will come out if needed!

 

[Toledo]

Caroline and her niece Jazmin Grace, what do they have in common? Guess...

In all this talk of what is right and what is not all I see is that the loser happens to be a person born first but born woman: Princess Caroline. Had Monaco's constitution been more up to date (as in we are in a whole different millenium) the older sibling should be the heir of the throne. If Monaco was like Sweden Albert would be the Grimaldi's Prince Carl so he can do with his life whatever he pleases.
Caroline is the one being short changed on this deal discussing Jazmin Grace's hypotetical rights over her little half brother. Caroline, like Jazmin Grace, is the older sibling (known to us so far, but I'm crossing my fingers and rolling my eyes now)

Even the posibility of legitimization of Jazmin Grace and Alexandre brings memories of the other thread discussing equality of sexes, the thread on Japan having a woman for Empress. If you think of it, the events in Monaco are somewhat similar to Japan's. The basics are a woman being considered less appropiate for a crown (real or hypotetical) than her younger male sibling or any other male relative like in the case of Japan.

 

[Suonymona]

Maybe Albert should change the Constitution and retroactivate to make Caroline the heir.
Then he can step aside and let Caroline and her offspring be the Princely Family.
Finally Albert could do what he wanted and no one would care how many kids (that couldn't get the throne) he sired.

Ann

 

[sebastian]

Maybe Albert should change the Constitution and retroactivate to make Caroline the heir.
Then he can step aside and let Caroline and her offspring be the Princely Family.
Finally Albert could do what he wanted and no one would care how many kids (that couldn't get the throne) he sired.

Ann

Sorry , 'let Caroline and her offspring be the princely family' ?
First: Albert doesn't want this, Caroline doesn't ... and how nice to forget about Stephanie and her children in that whole thing .

Sorry, but what are you guys all talking about?! Monaco's succession is fixed. Albert was trained and prepared to be Monaco's ruler. It is his job and he's the best man for it. It's his life, he was meant for this ever since he was a baby. He has all his family around to participate and take over several duties. They all play their part in this. Why sould things be changed?

Really, most of you guys on these boards ( and others ) make me wonder and shake my head .... a lot ... lately....sorry, really....

 

[kimebear]

Either of Alberts illegitimate kids could be made the heir to the throne. He doesn't have to marry their mothers. He just has to adopt one of the kids. The 1918 Ordinance allows him to adopt over the age of 50 as long as the child is 18 or younger.

 

[Grace]

The Constitution was revised in 2002 and adoption is not an option anymore for succession...adoption was good solution not to estinguish the dinasty when collaterals could not inherit the throne; now that they can (Caro, Steph and children), adoption has been ruled out as it is not necessary anymore.

 

[kimebear]

The Constitution was revised in 2002 and adoption is not an option anymore for succession...adoption was good solution not to estinguish the dinasty when collaterals could not inherit the throne; now that they can (Caro, Steph and children), adoption has been ruled out as it is not necessary anymore.

Yes, sorry this has been pointed out to me. The info I was reading must be out of date. Its unfortunate though as it could have prevented what may be a big problem in a family already troubled with sibling rivalry.

 

[Grace]

No need to apologize at all; I'm glad if I could be helpful.
Anyway, I think the family is more affected by misunderstandings or disagreement (sometimes) than rivalry. I don't really think Albert,Caro and Steph would ever fight for the throne...plus, after the revision in 2002, there's no room for fighting and things are pretty clear: if Albert doesn't have a legitimate heir, the throne goes to Caro, and then to Andrea, and there is nothing to argue about. Plus, I'm quite sure all three siblings were consulted by Rainier before the Constitutional changed and agreed to it...

Kisses

 

[mwhite3182]

If PRINCE RANIER HAD DIED AT AN EARLY AGE . . .

while Albert was still young (under 18) would Princess Grace have been ruler?

 

[HRH Elizabeth]

No, the wife of the ruler would not inherit the throne. It would probably have gone to Albert with Grace as regent, although they might have picked a different regent.

I am a bit confused though as to why Jasmin has been shortchanged? Neither she nor her half-brother will ever inherit the thorne, regardless of gender.

 

[Beatrice]

The only sure is that Andrea will inherit the throne!:w00t2: :w00t2: :w00t2:

 

[magnik]

Yes, If Albert wouldn't produce a legal heir or wouldn't change the constitution/succession...

 

[seto]

No, the wife of the ruler would not inherit the throne. It would probably have gone to Albert with Grace as regent, although they might have picked a different regent.

I am a bit confused though as to why Jasmin has been shortchanged? Neither she nor her half-brother will ever inherit the thorne, regardless of gender.

Basically they are considered illegitimate and cannot inherit the throne. They also do not legally carry alberts last nme.

 

[sandsla]

Yes, If Albert wouldn't produce a legal heir or wouldn't change the constitution/succession...

I think it would first go to Caroline & she could pass it to her son if she wished?

 

[Suonymona]

That is correct sandsla.

As things stand now, should Albert die without LEGITIMATE sire, Caroline (should she still be living) will inherit the throne. Mostly likely she would then pass it to her oldest son Andrea.

Albert could change things, however, it would be a long process and would put the throne in peril if he died without the change being ratified.

Rainier was very smart creating the changes he did when he did.

Ann

 

[TrustWorthy]

Basically they are considered illegitimate and cannot inherit the throne. They also do not legally carry alberts last nme.

PA can do anything he wants regarding Jazmin and Alex -- those so sure about her NOT being his daughter are the very same saying she will NEVER take the throne. Time will tell...

Also, her name IS Jazmin Grace Grimaldi -- Lacoste was NEVER quoted as saying Jazmin Grace could not use the Grimaldi name -- that's newspaper myth.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Jazmin's birth certificate (sadly, exploited in the press) says she is Jazmin Grace Grimaldi, true true, but I thought the Grimaldis were refusing to call her that. Why else are the newspapers calling her Jazmin Rotolo? If Grimaldi is her legal name (it is, whatever is on the birth certificate is legal, unless you change the social security card because of adoption or marriage or some other reason) why this reference in the newspapers as Jazmin Rotolo? Supposedly, Lacoste was quoted saying the family would not acknowledge Jazmin's use of the Grimaldi name, but Trustworthy says it's myth, so I'm curious as to what exactly the family's stance on it is? Has Lacoste said anything or referred to her in any specific way or is she just "the kid" or "the child"?

Caroline and her niece Jazmin Grace, what do they have in common? Guess...

In all this talk of what is right and what is not all I see is that the loser happens to be a person born first but born woman: Princess Caroline. Had Monaco's constitution been more up to date (as in we are in a whole different millenium) the older sibling should be the heir of the throne. If Monaco was like Sweden Albert would be the Grimaldi's Prince Carl so he can do with his life whatever he pleases.
Caroline is the one being short changed on this deal discussing Jazmin Grace's hypotetical rights over her little half brother. Caroline, like Jazmin Grace, is the older sibling (known to us so far, but I'm crossing my fingers and rolling my eyes now)

Even the posibility of legitimization of Jazmin Grace and Alexandre brings memories of the other thread discussing equality of sexes, the thread on Japan having a woman for Empress. If you think of it, the events in Monaco are somewhat similar to Japan's. The basics are a woman being considered less appropiate for a crown (real or hypotetical) than her younger male sibling or any other male relative like in the case of Japan.

Toledo, Jazmin is older than Alex, but as a boy, wouldn't Alex have the superior rights in the hypothetical? Albert is younger than Caroline, but ahead of her because he is male. The same situation for Rainier and Antoinette. It seems that the law of primogeniture is still intact in Monaco.