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  #461  
Old 11-21-2012, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rosana View Post
I believe the press is responsible for this mess as regards succession issues. I remember reading that Caroline needed the annulment so that her children would be legitmate. I think now that was not true at all. She wanted the annulment because she wanted to marry Casiraghi, for personal reasons, because she is a Catholic, but not because that way her children could inherit. In fact, Louis never married Charlotte´s mother, Marie Juliette Louvet, and she enherited anyway. The Constitution does not state that the heir has to be born in a Catholic marriage.

La Constitution de la Principauté / Les Institutions / Gouvernement et Institutions / Portail du Gouvernement - Monaco
Charlotte was adopted which the Church supports.

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The Catholic Church does not permit divorce for valid sacramental marriages. In fact a valid sacramental marriage is impossible to dissolve thereby making divorce not possible if the marriage was sacramental.

Perhaps, but only if you have received an annulment (which means your previous marriage was not considered a valid sacrament). If you receive a civil divorce, but no annulment, then you are still married to the other person in the eyes of the Church and would be committing adultery if you married another.
About Catholics

My ex wasn't allowed to remarry in the Catholic Church since his first marriage was a valid sacrament. He left the church because of it and he had 2 children besides ours. When I converted I was in classes with several people who had a civil wedding and were waiting for an annulment before they could complete the process to join the church and their marriage to be blessed.

You can find following in several articles and books.

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However, because her first marriage was not annulled by the Vatican until 1992, Caroline's three children with Casiraghi (sons Andrea and Pierre and daughter Charlotte), were not considered "legitimate" in Roman Catholic Monaco, and were technically disqualified from Monaco's royal succession.
Princess Caroline of Monaco Biography - Facts, Birthday, Life Story - Biography.com

Until 2002, the crown of Monaco could only pass to the direct descendants (including adopted children) of the reigning prince. This meant that Princesses Caroline and Stephanie would lose their places in line at the moment of Prince Albert's accession.

Adoption was taken out. Stephanie's children were christened in the Church and she married to Daniel putting their children in line. You don't have to actually be married within the church but it is preferred they can bless a marriage which recognizes it as I witnessed in the classes.
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  #462  
Old 11-21-2012, 11:33 PM
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Princess Charlotte was illegitimate for the church, she was not adopted into a Catholic marriage. It is the same as a child born out of wedlock. She was adopted in 1918 and Prince Louis married Ghislaine in the 40´s. IMO even if Monaco is a Catholic state, it was never required that he be born in a Catholic marriage.
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  #463  
Old 03-03-2013, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
If they intend that, they will have married already without anyone knowing (highly unlikely).. the baby is expected any day now, so they most likely are not marrying before birth now..
So, no succession rights for the baby. What a shame, Andrea doesn't know his duties with Monaco? (just like Prince Albert.)

Couldn't a simple civil wedding solve the problem?
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  #464  
Old 03-03-2013, 03:08 PM
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If Andrea and Tatiana marry any time after the baby's birth, the child will be in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne.
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  #465  
Old 03-03-2013, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

If Andrea and Tatiana marry any time after the baby's birth, the child will be in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne.
There are so many lines of succession, sometimes I get confused with them.

Thanks for reminding me.
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  #466  
Old 03-03-2013, 03:18 PM
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The baby's succession rights pend on if they marry, not when. The child will become legitimized (and thus in line to the throne) upon Andrea & Tatiana's marriage. Whenever that is (before or after doesn't matter). I'm sure they know what they're doing.
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  #467  
Old 03-03-2013, 03:37 PM
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Sometimes I wonder where is the sense of duty Monaco Royals would have to have with the succession to the Throne.

Andrea isn't a Prince, but he's second in line, so, some sense of duty would be a natural thing for him to have.
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  #468  
Old 03-03-2013, 04:08 PM
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^^^^^
Well he has, potentially, supplied another heir. Some might consider that a duty,
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  #469  
Old 03-03-2013, 04:08 PM
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I think he does have a sense of duty appropriate to his presumptive status. It has to be a difficult situation to be in, especially now that Albert is married and is in prime position to produce a legitimate heir. But even before that, I believe Andrea has been being subtly "groomed" in the background for his possible role. His education degrees are good evidence to that. He takes on more charities and official duties than his siblings. If he began doing outright "heir to the heir" things, that could reflect poorly on his uncle (to the public).
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  #470  
Old 03-03-2013, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
^^^^^
Well he has, potentially, supplied another heir. Some might consider that a duty,
The baby is not a heir until Andrea gets married with Tatiana.
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  #471  
Old 03-03-2013, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
The baby is not a heir until Andrea gets married with Tatiana.
This discussion is going no-where... you obviously feel that a couple should marry be fore having children because children should be born in wedlock,
These two have announced they will marry in 2013 but right now, I'm sure their first priority is to have this baby safe and sound into this world...
After that, within a few months, they will do the wedding thing
and that's all there is to it...
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  #472  
Old 03-03-2013, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
The baby is not a heir until Andrea gets married with Tatiana.
That is why I used the word "potentially"......if he marries Tatiana in a civil ceremony either before or after the birth the child will be in the line of succession. If they wish they can have an RC ceremony any time after that although it is not a requirement for succession rights as only the civil ceremony has any legal status.
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  #473  
Old 03-03-2013, 07:31 PM
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If Andrea and Tatiana want the child to be a possible heir, they will marry. If they want to spare the child, it's possible they won't.

In common law countries, such as Britain and the U.S. (basically countries that spun off from Britain), whenever the parents marry, it legitimizes the child, even if the child is 40 when the parents do so. However, nowadays such legitimization is meaningless for all intents and purposes unless one is talking about inheriting a throne.

Monaco no doubt is a civil law country, and I am assuming the legitimization laws are the same, but I'm not sure.
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  #474  
Old 08-09-2013, 01:10 AM
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If Charlotte marries and Andrea does not, I wonder if Caroline will start hovering more over Charlotte because of the fact that despite the lack of title, Charlotte could end up a Princess of Monaco with her child as the heir.
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  #475  
Old 08-09-2013, 01:20 AM
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Regardless of the status of his child, Andrea still comes before Charlotte in the line of succession. If he doesn't get married and inherits the throne then what will happen is just another situation like what we have now; head of state whose heir presumptive is his sister, who can expect to be succeeded by her eldest child.

In the event that Caroline becomes head of state I would suspect that her children (and male-line, legitimate grandchildren) would end up getting titles as well.
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  #476  
Old 08-09-2013, 01:31 AM
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Both Andrea and Pierre and their legitimate children come before Charlotte in the line of succession
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  #477  
Old 08-09-2013, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Both Andrea and Pierre and their legitimate children come before Charlotte in the line of succession
I always forget about Pierre...
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  #478  
Old 08-12-2013, 06:35 AM
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I wonder what sort of Princess of Monaco Tatiana would end up making. Certainly I see Caroline preferring that her children end up reigning. With herself coming first of course.

What do you guys think of Caroline's chances of becoming Princess of Monaco?
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  #479  
Old 08-12-2013, 07:19 AM
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Well that's quite easily answered, if Albert doesn't have an heir Caroline will inherit the throne on his death. However it's widely thought she would pass the throne directly to her son.
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  #480  
Old 08-12-2013, 07:33 AM
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Its a long way off ,Albert & Charlene may still have children yet,but then again we never know what may happen.
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