Monaco's succession issues

[LadyMacAlpine]

Originally Posted by rosana

I believe the press is responsible for this mess as regards succession issues. I remember reading that Caroline needed the annulment so that her children would be legitmate. I think now that was not true at all. She wanted the annulment because she wanted to marry Casiraghi, for personal reasons, because she is a Catholic, but not because that way her children could inherit. In fact, Louis never married Charlotte´s mother, Marie Juliette Louvet, and she enherited anyway. The Constitution does not state that the heir has to be born in a Catholic marriage.

La Constitution de la Principauté / Les Institutions / Gouvernement et Institutions / Portail du Gouvernement - Monaco

Charlotte was adopted which the Church supports.

The Catholic Church does not permit divorce for valid sacramental marriages. In fact a valid sacramental marriage is impossible to dissolve thereby making divorce not possible if the marriage was sacramental.

Perhaps, but only if you have received an annulment (which means your previous marriage was not considered a valid sacrament). If you receive a civil divorce, but no annulment, then you are still married to the other person in the eyes of the Church and would be committing adultery if you married another.

About Catholics

My ex wasn't allowed to remarry in the Catholic Church since his first marriage was a valid sacrament. He left the church because of it and he had 2 children besides ours. When I converted I was in classes with several people who had a civil wedding and were waiting for an annulment before they could complete the process to join the church and their marriage to be blessed.

You can find following in several articles and books.

However, because her first marriage was not annulled by the Vatican until 1992, Caroline's three children with Casiraghi (sons Andrea and Pierre and daughter Charlotte), were not considered "legitimate" in Roman Catholic Monaco, and were technically disqualified from Monaco's royal succession.

Princess Caroline of Monaco Biography - Facts, Birthday, Life Story - Biography.com

Until 2002, the crown of Monaco could only pass to the direct descendants (including adopted children) of the reigning prince. This meant that Princesses Caroline and Stephanie would lose their places in line at the moment of Prince Albert's accession.

Adoption was taken out. Stephanie's children were christened in the Church and she married to Daniel putting their children in line. You don't have to actually be married within the church but it is preferred they can bless a marriage which recognizes it as I witnessed in the classes.

[rosana]

Princess Charlotte was illegitimate for the church, she was not adopted into a Catholic marriage. It is the same as a child born out of wedlock. She was adopted in 1918 and Prince Louis married Ghislaine in the 40´s. IMO even if Monaco is a Catholic state, it was never required that he be born in a Catholic marriage.

[BrazilianEmpire]

Originally Posted by Lee-Z

If they intend that, they will have married already without anyone knowing (highly unlikely).. the baby is expected any day now, so they most likely are not marrying before birth now..

So, no succession rights for the baby. What a shame, Andrea doesn't know his duties with Monaco? (just like Prince Albert.)

Couldn't a simple civil wedding solve the problem?

[Artemisia]

If Andrea and Tatiana marry any time after the baby's birth, the child will be in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne.

[BrazilianEmpire]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

If Andrea and Tatiana marry any time after the baby's birth, the child will be in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne.

There are so many lines of succession, sometimes I get confused with them.

Thanks for reminding me.

[Ready4Royalty]

The baby's succession rights pend on if they marry, not when. The child will become legitimized (and thus in line to the throne) upon Andrea & Tatiana's marriage. Whenever that is (before or after doesn't matter). I'm sure they know what they're doing.

[BrazilianEmpire]

Sometimes I wonder where is the sense of duty Monaco Royals would have to have with the succession to the Throne.

Andrea isn't a Prince, but he's second in line, so, some sense of duty would be a natural thing for him to have.

[NGalitzine]

^^^^^
Well he has, potentially, supplied another heir. Some might consider that a duty,

[Ready4Royalty]

I think he does have a sense of duty appropriate to his presumptive status. It has to be a difficult situation to be in, especially now that Albert is married and is in prime position to produce a legitimate heir. But even before that, I believe Andrea has been being subtly "groomed" in the background for his possible role. His education degrees are good evidence to that. He takes on more charities and official duties than his siblings. If he began doing outright "heir to the heir" things, that could reflect poorly on his uncle (to the public).

[BrazilianEmpire]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

^^^^^
Well he has, potentially, supplied another heir. Some might consider that a duty,

The baby is not a heir until Andrea gets married with Tatiana.

[Lee-Z]

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

The baby is not a heir until Andrea gets married with Tatiana.

This discussion is going no-where... you obviously feel that a couple should marry be fore having children because children should be born in wedlock,
These two have announced they will marry in 2013 but right now, I'm sure their first priority is to have this baby safe and sound into this world...
After that, within a few months, they will do the wedding thing
and that's all there is to it...

[NGalitzine]

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

The baby is not a heir until Andrea gets married with Tatiana.

That is why I used the word "potentially"......if he marries Tatiana in a civil ceremony either before or after the birth the child will be in the line of succession. If they wish they can have an RC ceremony any time after that although it is not a requirement for succession rights as only the civil ceremony has any legal status.

[GracieGiraffe]

If Andrea and Tatiana want the child to be a possible heir, they will marry. If they want to spare the child, it's possible they won't.

In common law countries, such as Britain and the U.S. (basically countries that spun off from Britain), whenever the parents marry, it legitimizes the child, even if the child is 40 when the parents do so. However, nowadays such legitimization is meaningless for all intents and purposes unless one is talking about inheriting a throne.

Monaco no doubt is a civil law country, and I am assuming the legitimization laws are the same, but I'm not sure.