Monaco's succession issues

[oneofthem]

Originally Posted by lancchick

Men have children in their 50s. It happens. What's up the age discrimination?

I totally agree....it's as if you're all writing Albert off just because he's 53. C'mon people, he's still relatively young and in good health (better than most of us here I should imagine, given his resources) and unless something untoward happens or he gets seriously ill for some reason, he'll probably live to a ripe old age....80-100 possibly. There's plenty of time for him and Charlene to have kids. Unless Charlene is at that age where pregnancy is increasingly risky or she has something untoward happen, I'd say they'll produce that heir to the throne quite soon.

Let's say Albert heads for the harps and clouds in his mid 80's. His prospective eldest son could be in his early 30's. By the way nearly everyone is talking here, even if he doesn't produce an heir, Caroline's and Stephanie's kids (most of them, anyway) aren't going to be spring chickens either, by that time. What if none of them produce an heir. It's happened in the past and there's nothing to say it won't happen again. The whole line dies out, Monaco reverts back to France and that's that.

[Fürstin Taxis]

If I remember correctly, the current Duke of Urach can be Prince of Monaco through his ancestor Florestine of Monaco. Or not?

[FanofMonaco]

In this one area I am not a feminist. I think alot of PC and PS's marital problems are due to them being Princesses. Being a ruler would just make marriage that much more difficult. Men want to be the head of the family. As for adoptions, Pr probably preferred that PC be second in line than someone who knew nothing about Monaco. Monaco isn't lacking in potential rulers. They have PC , PS and the de Massey families if PA dies without an heir. Potentially even the de Polognacs or Monaco could always go democratic. As for a regent, I am guessing PC or Andrea would be chosen.

[CasiraghiTrio]

I think the 2002 succession clause was pointless and they should mostly go back to the 1911 constitution, at least where succession is concerned (not necessarily the whole thing) with just one change: equal geniture. Enough with the primogeniture stuff. It is stupid. Eldest child, regardless of sex. It's not about being feminist. It just makes good sense.

[janb]

Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

I think the 2002 succession clause was pointless and they should mostly go back to the 1911 constitution, at least where succession is concerned (not necessarily the whole thing) with just one change: equal geniture. Enough with the primogeniture stuff. It is stupid. Eldest child, regardless of sex. It's not about being feminist. It just makes good sense.

Yes, it is one of the way to make the instution more adapted for current times. So of course Republcians are opposed sicne an outdated out of touch Moarchy is easier to get rid off.

[Fürstin Taxis]

And Rainier was sad that Caroline has the character for a Princess sovereign, instead of Albert.
She was his favourite, while Albert was mummys boy. Stephanie was loved by everyone.

[agogo]

Originally Posted by janb

Yes, it is one of the way to make the instution more adapted for current times. So of course Republcians are opposed sicne an outdated out of touch Moarchy is easier to get rid off.

Are there republicans in Monaco? Democrats too? Who knew!!

[CasiraghiTrio]

No Democrats in Monaco by that name. I mean, I doubt anyone of left wing ideologies in Monaco would call themselves a Democrat. "Democrat" is a party in the USA. And "Republican" outside the USa is totally different from its American context. Republicans outside the USA are just people who are pro-republic/anti-monarchy, etc.

I don't know what Monaco's party politics is like. That is something I never really thought about. Maybe it is similar to or even the same as in France?
Interesting ideas....

[agogo]

Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

No Democrats in Monaco by that name. I mean, I doubt anyone of left wing ideologies in Monaco would call themselves a Democrat. "Democrat" is a party in the USA. And "Republican" outside the USa is totally different from its American context. Republicans outside the USA are just people who are pro-republic/anti-monarchy, etc.

I don't know what Monaco's party politics is like. That is something I never really thought about. Maybe it is similar to or even the same as in France?
Interesting ideas....

Thank you for the clarification about republicans. I wondered what a republican stood for in Europe. As for party politics in Monaco, the ruler has absolute rule, isn't that correct? Yes there are elected officials, but the principality is so small, maybe becoming elected depends on who your friends are.

[Renata4711]

Site officiel du Gouvernement Princier
Website of the Government of Monaco

Accueil*>*Institutions(Fr)
Monaco is a constitutional and hereditary monarchy which affirms the primacy of the law, on all its institutions, and which affirms the separation of power.

Le Conseil National / www.conseil-national.mc

Political groups:
UP - Union pour la Principauté
UNAM - Union Nationale pour l'Avenir de Monaco
REM - Rassemblement et Enjeux pour Monaco
S.E. - Sans Etiquette

[Mirabel]

Originally Posted by oneofthem

I totally agree....it's as if you're all writing Albert off just because he's 53... Unless Charlene is at that age where pregnancy is increasingly risky or she has something untoward happen, I'd say they'll produce that heir to the throne quite soon.

I'd be willing to bet money that they will have a child within two years.

[Bones]

Originally Posted by janb

Yes, it is one of the way to make the instution more adapted for current times. So of course Republcians are opposed sicne an outdated out of touch Moarchy is easier to get rid off.

It doesn't bother me if they change or not (I'm rather glad we had Rainier III instead of Antoinette). What I don't understand is changing to a gender-neutral succession out of a desire for "fairness". I just don't understand it. I'm a monarchist through and through and yet I'll be honest -there is nothing *fair* about monarchy at all. If it is "unfair" for Albert to be sovereign rather than Caroline or Rainier rather than Antoinette, why is it "fair" that you have to be a Grimaldi at all? Is it unfair that Albert's natural daughter cannot succeed him? Is it fair to have a principality at all for that matter?

Don't get me wrong, I support them all just the way they are and the country and its traditions just the way they are. I just can't comprehend the idea of thinking you can make a hereditary monarchy "fair". I didn't think fairness was supposed to come into it.

[Nathalie Cox]

Maybe he will change that, if he has a daughter and then a son...oh well, maybe not. If Albert only has daughters with Charlene, that means that in the future a woman will be the souvereign Princess?

[Horseygal]

Originally Posted by Nathalie Cox

Ladies, i cannot agree more with you. Caroline should totally be the Souvereign Princess of Monaco. But, for some reason (appart of the male primordial thing) Albert is.

I agree, too - but, didn't the rule only change after Prince Rainier became ill, and Albert hadn't yet married or produced an heir (legitimate) - then, it switched to allow Princess Caro or her male sons to ascend?

[Renata4711]

I think that Albert would have been the Heir Presumptive because he is male. If, after a certain period of time, he had not produced an heir, then the tables would be turned.

[CasiraghiTrio]

Albert was really Heir Apparent, not Heir Presumptive. Now he is Sovereign and Caroline is Hereditary Princess until/if he has a legit kid. When/if Albert has a legit kid, presumably with Charlene, Caroline will be bumped down to #2 and the kid will be Hereditary Prince/princess. Remember that when Rainier III was alive, Albert was Prince Hereditaire (Hereditary Prince). Some English translations referred to him as Crown Prince, but Monaco doesn't have a crown. They have a throne, but not a crown, so Hereditary Prince is more accurate.

[CasiraghiTrio]

Originally Posted by FanofMonaco

In this one area I am not a feminist. I think alot of PC and PS's marital problems are due to them being Princesses. Being a ruler would just make marriage that much more difficult. Men want to be the head of the family. As for adoptions, Pr probably preferred that PC be second in line than someone who knew nothing about Monaco. Monaco isn't lacking in potential rulers. They have PC , PS and the de Massey families if PA dies without an heir. Potentially even the de Polognacs or Monaco could always go democratic. As for a regent, I am guessing PC or Andrea would be chosen.

This is the stupidest, most pointless post ever. So many posts on this forum are so lame. Who said anything about regrets. You're projecting your crap on me.

[MRSJ]

Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

Albert was really Heir Apparent, not Heir Presumptive. Now he is Sovereign and Caroline is Hereditary Princess until/if he has a legit kid. When/if Albert has a legit kid, presumably with Charlene, Caroline will be bumped down to #2 and the kid will be Hereditary Prince/princess. Remember that when Rainier III was alive, Albert was Prince Hereditaire (Hereditary Prince). Some English translations referred to him as Crown Prince, but Monaco doesn't have a crown. They have a throne, but not a crown, so Hereditary Prince is more accurate.

Oh I always thought hereditary prince/princess meant they were a prince/princess of the blood in Monaco rather then by marriage.....ok so that's the equivalent of Crown Prince/Prince of Wales/Prince of Asturias/ Prince of Orange....got it!

[FanofMonaco]

Don't sugar coat your opinions CasiTrio.

[Moonmaiden23]

Weren't the succession laws altered by Rainier in 2002 specifically because Rainier knew about rumors of Albert's out of wedlock children(specifically Jazmin Rotolo) and wanted specifically to block them from the Succession?