Monaco's succession issues


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Opps sorry- meant takes the throne-

Sorry should have mentioned in my post I am assuming if PA dies without heir and Caroline pre-deceases myself (or anyone else who is prob so young she'll be assume throne and then so will Andrea)-so we may get to see her inherit the throne and then Andrea- like in England, assuming Charles is crowned he could only be King a few years and considering I am William's age, barring some huge diaster I will probably live to see both Charles and William crowned- I didn't mean to skip PCaroline, That's what I meant by see this play out-sorry for confusion.

That's OK! ;)
But I have a question. I read that according to the succession law, the sovereign prince must bare the name Grimaldi. That's why, if Caroline becomes Sovereign Princess of Monaca, she has to revert to her maiden name, whilst being able to keep her HRH title. However, would Andrea need to change his lastname from Casiraghi to GRrimaldi?
 
Charlotte_Aster said:
That's OK! ;)
But I have a question. I read that according to the succession law, the sovereign prince must bare the name Grimaldi. That's why, if Caroline becomes Sovereign Princess of Monaca, she has to revert to her maiden name, whilst being able to keep her HRH title. However, would Andrea need to change his lastname from Casiraghi to GRrimaldi?

Oh I just read this on Wikipedia and I believe it said he would have too. It also said he would become HSH and can not carry the HRH since the title is his mothers by marriage :) Please some correct me if I sm wrong because Wiki is not always reliable
 
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If PC became ruler all of the Casiraghis automatically become Prince/Princess and their names will be changed to Grimaldi. Not trying to kill off PA.
 
If PC became ruler all of the Casiraghis automatically become Prince/Princess and their names will be changed to Grimaldi. Not trying to kill off PA.
I wonder why their surnames are not Casiraghi-Grimaldi,as for example are Bhutto-Zardari or Windsor-Mountbatten
 
I wonder why their surnames are not Casiraghi-Grimaldi,as for example are Bhutto-Zardari or Windsor-Mountbatten

Because Caroline chose to allow her children to have her husbands surname, seeing as they don't have royal titles why have the surname?
 
One difference is that the Grimaldis are not an actual "royal" house but were a noble family raised to princely status. Princess Caroline married a commoner (albeit an elite one and totally normal for the Grimaldis) and thus their children bore the surname of their father. If any were to succeed to the throne, say if Andrea were to become "Prince Albert III" he would have to take the name Grimaldi. This all goes back far into the history of the dynasty to Seigneur Jean I of Monaco who put forward their first law of succession on April 5, 1454 which restricted the succession to legitimate male offspring of the Grimaldi family in order of birth. It further stated that any man, not of the family, would have to renounce his own house and take for himself and his descendants the surname and coat of arms of the House of Grimaldi.

It is, however, not uncommon to find family lines named in such a way by historians to avoid confusion. For example they will at times refer to the recent line of the Princely Family as 'Grimaldi-Mantignon' to refer to the line descending from Prince Jacques I or 'Grimaldi-Poliganc' to refer to Prince Rainier III and Prince Albert II who are descended from the Duc d'Polignac.

:monacostandard: :monacoflag:
 
If Andrea were to take the throne some day (let's suppose) he would change his surname to Grimaldi....and his siblings? They would still be Casiraghis? Andrea could name them Prince/ss? Is that up to him?
 
They would be Grimaldis and Prince/Princess automatically.
 
I wouldn't think Charlene would be qualified to act as Regent. She was not born or raised in Monaco and does not have the education or training required to act as Regent. Monaco is unique in that the Reining Prince has legislative, constitutional, judiciary and executive power. Albert was well educated and trained for this role. Caroline would be the most qauilfied to act as Regent should anything happen to PA prior to a legitimate heir being ready to assume the Regency, however she is also older than Albert.

It's an interesting scenario to ponder considering Albert is marrying at 53 and does not currently have a legitimate heir.
Exactly, Charlene is not qualified, she lacks of education to act like a regent, and supposing that Albert dies (God forbid) when his kid is minor, but Caroline is still alive...it's up to Albert to decide (previous to his death, of course) who he wants to act as regent. As Caroline will be older too, maybe he would choose Andrea or Pierre to act as regent till his kid is 18 years old or more.
 
The 1911 constitutional centennial is this year. Prince Albert said in his New Year address that he won't "erase neither past nor present, but will prolong them." He eluded however to each generation adding a stone to the structure, from a desire to make improvements and do better than their predecessors. He did not mention the 2002 revision but this is what I immediately thought about. I wonder if he has any intentions of making improvements of his own. I think restoring some of the 1911 rules makes a lot of sense. Doesn't the 2002 constitution erase the 1911 adoption clause and make it impossible for "natural" descendants to inherit the throne? Another thing I'd love to see changed is the primogeniture! Monaco should have the equal geniture succession law that other monarchies (I know Monaco is a principality) like Norway adopted. I think this would be a great improvement on past generations! Then the succession would be: 1) Caroline, 2) Andrea, 3)Charlotte; instead of 3) being Pierre over Charlotte.
 
Men have children in their 50s. It happens. What's up the age discrimination? :whistling:

I totally agree....it's as if you're all writing Albert off just because he's 53. C'mon people, he's still relatively young and in good health (better than most of us here I should imagine, given his resources) and unless something untoward happens or he gets seriously ill for some reason, he'll probably live to a ripe old age....80-100 possibly. There's plenty of time for him and Charlene to have kids. Unless Charlene is at that age where pregnancy is increasingly risky or she has something untoward happen, I'd say they'll produce that heir to the throne quite soon.

Let's say Albert heads for the harps and clouds in his mid 80's. His prospective eldest son could be in his early 30's. By the way nearly everyone is talking here, even if he doesn't produce an heir, Caroline's and Stephanie's kids (most of them, anyway) aren't going to be spring chickens either, by that time. What if none of them produce an heir. It's happened in the past and there's nothing to say it won't happen again. The whole line dies out, Monaco reverts back to France and that's that.
 
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If I remember correctly, the current Duke of Urach can be Prince of Monaco through his ancestor Florestine of Monaco. Or not?
 
In this one area I am not a feminist. I think alot of PC and PS's marital problems are due to them being Princesses. Being a ruler would just make marriage that much more difficult. Men want to be the head of the family. As for adoptions, Pr probably preferred that PC be second in line than someone who knew nothing about Monaco. Monaco isn't lacking in potential rulers. They have PC , PS and the de Massey families if PA dies without an heir. Potentially even the de Polognacs or Monaco could always go democratic. As for a regent, I am guessing PC or Andrea would be chosen.
 
I think the 2002 succession clause was pointless and they should mostly go back to the 1911 constitution, at least where succession is concerned (not necessarily the whole thing) with just one change: equal geniture. Enough with the primogeniture stuff. It is stupid. Eldest child, regardless of sex. It's not about being feminist. It just makes good sense.
 
I think the 2002 succession clause was pointless and they should mostly go back to the 1911 constitution, at least where succession is concerned (not necessarily the whole thing) with just one change: equal geniture. Enough with the primogeniture stuff. It is stupid. Eldest child, regardless of sex. It's not about being feminist. It just makes good sense.
Yes, it is one of the way to make the instution more adapted for current times. So of course Republcians are opposed sicne an outdated out of touch Moarchy is easier to get rid off.
 
And Rainier was sad that Caroline has the character for a Princess sovereign, instead of Albert. :D
She was his favourite, while Albert was mummys boy. Stephanie was loved by everyone.
 
Yes, it is one of the way to make the instution more adapted for current times. So of course Republcians are opposed sicne an outdated out of touch Moarchy is easier to get rid off.

Are there republicans in Monaco? Democrats too? Who knew!!
 
No Democrats in Monaco by that name. :D I mean, I doubt anyone of left wing ideologies in Monaco would call themselves a Democrat. "Democrat" is a party in the USA. And "Republican" outside the USa is totally different from its American context. Republicans outside the USA are just people who are pro-republic/anti-monarchy, etc.

I don't know what Monaco's party politics is like. That is something I never really thought about. Maybe it is similar to or even the same as in France?
Interesting ideas....
 
No Democrats in Monaco by that name. :D I mean, I doubt anyone of left wing ideologies in Monaco would call themselves a Democrat. "Democrat" is a party in the USA. And "Republican" outside the USa is totally different from its American context. Republicans outside the USA are just people who are pro-republic/anti-monarchy, etc.

I don't know what Monaco's party politics is like. That is something I never really thought about. Maybe it is similar to or even the same as in France?
Interesting ideas....

Thank you for the clarification about republicans. I wondered what a republican stood for in Europe. As for party politics in Monaco, the ruler has absolute rule, isn't that correct? Yes there are elected officials, but the principality is so small, maybe becoming elected depends on who your friends are.
 
Site officiel du Gouvernement Princier
Website of the Government of Monaco

Accueil > Institutions(Fr)
Monaco is a constitutional and hereditary monarchy which affirms the primacy of the law, on all its institutions, and which affirms the separation of power.

Le Conseil National / www.conseil-national.mc

Political groups:
UP - Union pour la Principauté
UNAM - Union Nationale pour l'Avenir de Monaco
REM - Rassemblement et Enjeux pour Monaco
S.E. - Sans Etiquette
 
I totally agree....it's as if you're all writing Albert off just because he's 53... Unless Charlene is at that age where pregnancy is increasingly risky or she has something untoward happen, I'd say they'll produce that heir to the throne quite soon.


I'd be willing to bet money that they will have a child within two years.
 
Yes, it is one of the way to make the instution more adapted for current times. So of course Republcians are opposed sicne an outdated out of touch Moarchy is easier to get rid off.

It doesn't bother me if they change or not (I'm rather glad we had Rainier III instead of Antoinette). What I don't understand is changing to a gender-neutral succession out of a desire for "fairness". I just don't understand it. I'm a monarchist through and through and yet I'll be honest -there is nothing *fair* about monarchy at all. If it is "unfair" for Albert to be sovereign rather than Caroline or Rainier rather than Antoinette, why is it "fair" that you have to be a Grimaldi at all? Is it unfair that Albert's natural daughter cannot succeed him? Is it fair to have a principality at all for that matter?

Don't get me wrong, I support them all just the way they are and the country and its traditions just the way they are. I just can't comprehend the idea of thinking you can make a hereditary monarchy "fair". I didn't think fairness was supposed to come into it.

:monacostandard: :monacoflag:
 
Maybe he will change that, if he has a daughter and then a son...oh well, maybe not. If Albert only has daughters with Charlene, that means that in the future a woman will be the souvereign Princess?
 
Ladies, i cannot agree more with you. Caroline should totally be the Souvereign Princess of Monaco. But, for some reason (appart of the male primordial thing) Albert is.

I agree, too - but, didn't the rule only change after Prince Rainier became ill, and Albert hadn't yet married or produced an heir (legitimate) - then, it switched to allow Princess Caro or her male sons to ascend?
 
I think that Albert would have been the Heir Presumptive because he is male. If, after a certain period of time, he had not produced an heir, then the tables would be turned.
 
Albert was really Heir Apparent, not Heir Presumptive. Now he is Sovereign and Caroline is Hereditary Princess until/if he has a legit kid. When/if Albert has a legit kid, presumably with Charlene, Caroline will be bumped down to #2 and the kid will be Hereditary Prince/princess. Remember that when Rainier III was alive, Albert was Prince Hereditaire (Hereditary Prince). Some English translations referred to him as Crown Prince, but Monaco doesn't have a crown. They have a throne, but not a crown, so Hereditary Prince is more accurate.
 
In this one area I am not a feminist. I think alot of PC and PS's marital problems are due to them being Princesses. Being a ruler would just make marriage that much more difficult. Men want to be the head of the family. As for adoptions, Pr probably preferred that PC be second in line than someone who knew nothing about Monaco. Monaco isn't lacking in potential rulers. They have PC , PS and the de Massey families if PA dies without an heir. Potentially even the de Polognacs or Monaco could always go democratic. As for a regent, I am guessing PC or Andrea would be chosen.
This is the stupidest, most pointless post ever. So many posts on this forum are so lame. Who said anything about regrets. You're projecting your crap on me.
 
CasiraghiTrio said:
Albert was really Heir Apparent, not Heir Presumptive. Now he is Sovereign and Caroline is Hereditary Princess until/if he has a legit kid. When/if Albert has a legit kid, presumably with Charlene, Caroline will be bumped down to #2 and the kid will be Hereditary Prince/princess. Remember that when Rainier III was alive, Albert was Prince Hereditaire (Hereditary Prince). Some English translations referred to him as Crown Prince, but Monaco doesn't have a crown. They have a throne, but not a crown, so Hereditary Prince is more accurate.

Oh I always thought hereditary prince/princess meant they were a prince/princess of the blood in Monaco rather then by marriage.....ok so that's the equivalent of Crown Prince/Prince of Wales/Prince of Asturias/ Prince of Orange....got it!
 
Weren't the succession laws altered by Rainier in 2002 specifically because Rainier knew about rumors of Albert's out of wedlock children(specifically Jazmin Rotolo) and wanted specifically to block them from the Succession?
 
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