Monaco's succession issues

[hibou]

Originally Posted by Jaya

Without prejudice:
The Monegasque Constitution cannot supercede the rulings of any international courtroom but do not quote me on that.
I think heirs legit and illegit would have to renounce "dower" rights and succession rights without duress when at the age of majority.
Although they might not reign they certainly could cause some legal tangle as in the Picasso case.JMO

Excellent point Jaya, I hadn't thought about International law.

[Grace]

International Law cannot (at present) interfere with domestic law in regards to the regime of a State. The laws according to which a Country is ruled is part of the so called "domestic jurisdiction" of a Nation, and International Law can't touch that. Just think of all the dictators in the world, and international law has no power to change that...I don't know if I've expressed myself well in English, but bottom line is an International court can overrule an internal court in regards to civil stuff (heritage), but not in regards of who sits on which Throne.

[moby]

Originally Posted by Grace

International Law cannot (at present) interfere with domestic law in regards to the regime of a State. The laws according to which a Country is ruled is part of the so called "domestic jurisdiction" of a Nation, and International Law can't touch that. Just think of all the dictators in the world, and international law has no power to change that...I don't know if I've expressed myself well in English, but bottom line is an International court can overrule an internal court in regards to civil stuff (heritage), but not in regards of who sits on which Throne.

True, true. In peace time, the sovereignty of any given internationally recognized state is given precedence over international law.

[libra65]

Originally Posted by Grace

International Law cannot (at present) interfere with domestic law in regards to the regime of a State. The laws according to which a Country is ruled is part of the so called "domestic jurisdiction" of a Nation, and International Law can't touch that. Just think of all the dictators in the world, and international law has no power to change that...I don't know if I've expressed myself well in English, but bottom line is an International court can overrule an internal court in regards to civil stuff (heritage), but not in regards of who sits on which Throne.

Thank you Grace. You expressed yourself perfectly and I agree 100%. There are no atrocities being committed here so I doubt any international court would even attempt to hear any suit filed. It would get tossed out on its ear. You can't put the supposed entitlement of 1 or 2 kids ahead to what is best for an independent nation.

Ysabel-I think the best line of succession would be if Albert were to marry & have children with his wife. However, if that doesn't happen (I really hope he does marry someone suitable), Caroline can carry on.

[ysbel]

Is Monaco part of the European Union?

[libra65]

Originally Posted by ysbel

Is Monaco part of the European Union?

I don't think they are. I googled "countries in the EU" and Monaco wasn't on the list.

[LouAnne]

monaco is part of the european council as san marino andorra and others micro states

[Jaya]

Originally Posted by libra65

Thank you Grace. You expressed yourself perfectly and I agree 100%. There are no atrocities being committed here so I doubt any international court would even attempt to hear any suit filed. It would get tossed out on its ear. You can't put the supposed entitlement of 1 or 2 kids ahead to what is best for an independent nation.

Ysabel-I think the best line of succession would be if Albert were to marry & have children with his wife. However, if that doesn't happen (I really hope he does marry someone suitable), Caroline can carry on.

Jacqueline Roque said the approximately the same things. You mothers slept with Picasso on Tuesdays and Thursdays and now you want an inheritance and a part of Picasso because you have a sense of supposed entitlement?
If the independent nation knew what was best for it , it would not have to have these issues arise[if they ever do] and it would not have the potential for a legal tangle with "the supposed but somewhat legal entitelment of I or 2 kids"[no atrocities were committed].Nor could the issue ever be deemed as being ahead of what is best for that independent nation[as 1 or 2 kids used in such denigrating terms]with or without immunity as it would inclusive, not exclusive and already resolved and probably is for all we know. The perusal of "Global Law" ISBN9789041104601 might be helpful and assist to understand alternative dispute resolution.But why not cross that bridge when coming to it? I am certain the Grimaldis are kind and caring people as has been the track record so far and I have faith in them.
This case was the Picasso case as it stands in precedent. The heirs of Picasso literally picked straws for each part of the inhertiance. paintings , monies... etc.... so I am saying better to be safe than sorry . And I hope and pray that that will always be the case for Monaco which has held us much by inspiration..JMO
Thank you so very much for the free and fair exchange of democratic ideas. It has been most stimulating and a privilege.

[lilytornado]

Originally Posted by libra65

I don't think they are. I googled "countries in the EU" and Monaco wasn't on the list.

It is even impossible for them to be in the EU. To be in the Eu, the country for example has to be a democracy, etc.
That is not possible for countries like Monaco, the Vatican, etc.

[Grace]

Monaco is not part of EU, but it has the EURO due to the monetary union with France.
International law is in evolution, but nations are so decided on protecting their "domestic jurisdiction" that it is highly unlikely that human rights will invade the political arena in the foreseeable future. Mind you this is not my personal opinion on the Grimaldi succession, but the opinion of the majority of the scholars (I study international law and these issues...) on human rights evolution and the international status of individuals in modern times.

[ysbel]

Well the EU has a consitution that supercedes the constitutions of its members countries. Its a controversial constitution but it has resisted legal challenges from individual states so far.

[Grace]

The Eu Constitution has no legal value, as it hasn't been ratified by the member States. Even if it had been ratified, it has no bearing on the Government forms of the member States (provided that they are democratic which is a requirement to become EU member)...Anyway, Monaco is not a member, nor has it asked to join the European Union.

[Jaya]

Originally Posted by Grace

The Eu Constitution has no legal value, as it hasn't been ratified by the member States. Even if it had been ratified, it has no bearing on the Government forms of the member States (provided that they are democratic which is a requirement to become EU member)...Anyway, Monaco is not a member, nor has it asked to join the European Union.

That Monaco has not asked to join the Eu is because it is an oligarchy. The Eu constitution not having legal value yet is just a matter of time before unified civil code ratification.Time will tell if this is prudent for Monaco and with this in mind the Eu Constitution like the human rights evolution you study is evolving too. It is part of the individual's international status in modern times and "Modern Times" by Chaplin.
All the best to the Grimaldis

Originally Posted by ysbel

Well the EU has a consitution that supercedes the constitutions of its members countries. Its a controversial constitution but it has resisted legal challenges from individual states so far.

Thanks for that....

[Grace]

Ok, anyone has a right to his/her opinion in regards to the succession issue in Monaco, but we can't change facts. The EU consitution has been rejected by some member States through referendums or parliamentary votes, and as much as I wish it to be ratified, there is nearly no chances that it will be accepted with no amendements.
Anyway, the EU Constitution has no value for a non member State (Monaco) as in International Law treaties have value only among the parties.
The European Civil Code has nothing to do with the EU Constitution and nothing to do with Government issues (distinction between private and public law) and is not binding for non-EU members.
You have every right to regret such state of things, but it's difficult to deny it.

[Jaya]

Originally Posted by Grace

Ok, anyone has a right to his/her opinion in regards to the succession issue in Monaco, but we can't change facts. The EU consitution has been rejected by some member States through referendums or parliamentary votes, and as much as I wish it to be ratified, there is nearly no chances that it will be accepted with no amendements.
Anyway, the EU Constitution has no value for a non member State (Monaco) as in International Law treaties have value only among the parties.
The European Civil Code has nothing to do with the EU Constitution and nothing to do with Government issues (distinction between private and public law) and is not binding for non-EU members.
You have every right to regret such state of things, but it's difficult to deny it.

For you it seems that Monaco will be impervious to change , laws, constitutions etc. But you would be amazed what the gavel in a judge's hand,coming down can do....

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Jaya

For you it seems that Monaco will be impervious to change , laws, constitutions etc. But you would be amazed what the gavel in a judge's hand,coming down can do....

Can you point me to where in my post I mentioned Monaco laws and Constitution? Rainier changed the Constitution and obviously Albert can change it too. It is not an easy route, but it is much easier than changing international law or its interpretation.
Are you sure Albert wants to change the status quo thought? He seems to agree with his father's choice up til now...still, if he changes his mind about succession, he might at any time attempt to have the Constitution changed again, not for any international reason, but for political or family related ones.
I repeat that while every single poster has equal right to a personal opinion on the succession issue, in my opinion appealing to international laws or treaties that have nothing to do with the matter to back up personal opinons just creates confusion in the discussion...

[Jaya]

Originally Posted by Grace

Can you point me to where in my post I mentioned Monaco laws and Constitution? Rainier changed the Constitution and obviously Albert can change it too. It is not an easy route, but it is much easier than changing international law or its interpretation.
Are you sure Albert wants to change the status quo thought? He seems to agree with his father's choice up til now...still, if he changes his mind about succession, he might at any time attempt to have the Constitution changed again, not for any international reason, but for political or family related ones.
I repeat that while every single poster has equal right to a personal opinion on the succession issue, in my opinion appealing to international laws or treaties that have nothing to do with the matter to back up personal opinons just creates confusion in the discussion...

I have no personal opinions to back up . I reitertate for the last time that this has no psychoplogical appeal for me at all. I do not care about the succession issue. I do not care about Prince Albert in the context which you mention.I will not go to the credibility of the Monaco constitution internationally.And how it may change or not change...
You fail to allude to the Picasso precedent setting case, which stands as far as inheritances and heirs on which this discussion started.Confusion might be easier to bear than justice........Case closed

Originally Posted by ysbel

Well the EU has a consitution that supercedes the constitutions of its members countries. Its a controversial constitution but it has resisted legal challenges from individual states so far.

Grace , Anything here you fail to understand? All the Eu countries will be subject to this constitution eventually except Monaco and the Vatican..
The same will apply to North and South America as globalization takes a definite form.We will have one constitution from the top of North America to the tip of South America..and one currency. From the transitional phase when there is no coherence of which law applies where to the definite form; interpretation is subject along the footpaths of jurisprudence.So I hope that for Monaco, and the rest of us subject to these newer laws all things work out in the global scheme of things.

[libra65]

Grace-Thank you for your information on the EU. You are apparently quite knowledgable on the topic.

Jaya-the Picasso precedent was not set in Monaco (an independent nation) and did not involve the succession of a royal/princely house. As I said, these children will benefit financially from his personal wealth but not the wealth of the sovereign. Also, does your last post insinuate that the US government will allow another constitution to overide its own? Please tell me I'm misinterpreting that post? It will never happen.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Jaya

Grace , Anything here you fail to understand? All the Eu countries will be subject to this constitution eventually except Monaco and the Vatican..

I understand what you say, but my problem is that what you say it's simply not true. I thought some clearing of juridical principles and laws could be welcome, but I see that you want to prove a point regardless of international affairs reality, so I'm out. Choose what you want, that a civil code has bearing on governing a country, that we'll all have the same Constitution, that the EU will force Monaco to change it's laws...
Thanks to those who appreciated my input; I majored in international studies, and had to pass exams on international law, European Union law, International relations, I was just trying to pass on something of what I've learnt.

[seto]

I for one thank you grace for your input on the situation.

Originally Posted by libra65

Grace-Thank you for your information on the EU. You are apparently quite knowledgable on the topic.

Jaya-the Picasso precedent was not set in Monaco (an independent nation) and did not involve the succession of a royal/princely house. As I said, these children will benefit financially from his personal wealth but not the wealth of the sovereign. Also, does your last post insinuate that the US government will allow another constitution to overide its own? Please tell me I'm misinterpreting that post? It will never happen.

I agree the U.S will never give up its Constitution.