Monaco's succession issues

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by Suonymona

It took Rainier (who was much more respected and revered) nearly four years to get the Constitution amended, passed and (re)ratified by both the Monaco and French governments.
Thus it would not be a good thing for Albert to attempt. He hasn't the leverage.

Albert is named on Jazmin's birth certificate. In California (at the time of Jazmin's birth in 1992), a mother could put any name as father and it was accepted. Now it requires the named man's consent--something that Albert would not have given.

It is unknown if Albert is named on Eric Alexander's birth certificate as it has not been made publicly available. Nicole claims it is and that Albert signed a private affidavit attesting to its facts but no legal documents pertaining to Eric Alexander's birth have been released.

I honestly believe Albert will never make his current children legal heirs by any means. He truly intends to marry and have more children who will be the legal legitimate heirs. And if the marriage is childless or he never marries, he will die and the crown will pass to Caroline.

I suspect that in the next ten years, if Albert does not marry, Caroline will make sure Andrea is presented in a much better public light--to the point where people will be clamoring for him to be the heir to a sixty-year-old Albert.

There is one interesting caveat that people have missed regarding succession: the restriction to persons who are Monegasque citizens at the time of the demise of the crown (death of ruling Prince/ss).
As long as Jazmin is a American (USA) citizen and Eric Alexander is a French citizen, they (and their mothers) can make whatever claims they like. Albert only has to refuse them citizenship and they can never wear his crown.

It doesn't even look like Caroline is trying to raise Andrea to be the next reigning prince of Monaco. Does Andrea have Monegasque citizenship or is he an Italian citizen like his father was?

[Lakshmi]

If years later Albert doesn't have legitimate children, and if Andrea is not a Monegasque citizen now, there would be no problem with giving citizenship to Andrea.

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by Lakshmi

If years later Albert doesn't have legitimate children, and if Andrea is not a Monegasque citizen now, there would be no problem with giving citizenship to Andrea.

Would that be a wise move though if Andrea is neither prepared for nor wants the role?

This is not a figurehead role.

[Ianna]

Originally Posted by ysbel

It doesn't even look like Caroline is trying to raise Andrea to be the next reigning prince of Monaco. Does Andrea have Monegasque citizenship or is he an Italian citizen like his father was?

I think he has Monegasque citizenship..At least according to this info;

"According to Law No. 1155 on Nationality (December 18, 1992), Monegasque citizenship is automatically acquired by every person born of a mother who was born Monegasque and still is at the date of that person's birth and by every person born of a Monegasque mother and who has a Monegasque-born ancestor on the mother's side of the family." Source

[Hans-Rickard]

Off course the best thing would be if Albert and Charlene will marry and produce a legitimate child in a near future!

If not I think Albert must abticate in som year and let Caroline take the throne and then let the succession run in this line.

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by Ianna

I think he has Monegasque citizenship..At least according to this info;

"According to Law No. 1155 on Nationality (December 18, 1992), Monegasque citizenship is automatically acquired by every person born of a mother who was born Monegasque and still is at the date of that person's birth and by every person born of a Monegasque mother and who has a Monegasque-born ancestor on the mother's side of the family." Source

Well it looks like if the laws automatically grant Monegasque citizenship if one's mother is Monegasque, its probable that the laws automatically grant citizenship if one's father is Monegasque too, which would let in Alexandre and whatever other illegitimate children Albert may father. Since Albert is the absolute ruler of Monaco I imagine he can change the rules however he wants to get what he wants but neither present scenario looks very good (and this is nothing against Andrea or Caroline-I just don't think Andrea was raised with this in mind and this position looks like one that one has to be raised for it or prepared for it for a long time to do it well) If Caroline dies before Albert, that makes Andrea's position even more difficult if he succeeds Albert.

Albert, if he's not careful, could well be setting up his successor to fail once he dies.

[Ianna]

Originally Posted by ysbel

Well it looks like if the laws automatically grant Monegasque citizenship if one's mother is Monegasque, its probable that the laws automatically grant citizenship if one's father is Monegasque too...

Yes, laws say; "...any person born in Monaco or abroad of a Monégasque father" ending with paragraph; "with regards to legitimate offspring, Monégasque nationality is passed on without it being necessary to fulfill any other condition; on the other hand, in the case of natural offspring, this handing-on of nationality only takes place if the child is recognized or legitimized by marriage of its parents." Source


I wish Prince Albert marries soon and has legitimate child(ren)..In every case, better sooner then later. And for Andrea (as ruler of Monaco), not sure that's gonna ever happen.

[seto]

Just my opinion I don't think albert will marry no need to. And as for andrea the power behind the throne if he has to rule will be caroline. But somehow I think they must be training him.

[Suonymona]

That law was made so Camille could have citizenship as her father is French. It is retroactive, so all the Casiraghis have dual citizenship with Italy and Monaco. However, Andrea traveled on a French passport to New York.

I am not familiar enough with Monaco passports. They could be issued under France (like Puerto Ricans travel under USA ones) but with their own covers?

I truly believe in everything happens for a reason in its own time. But patience is a very tough virtue!

[Grace]

The Constitution and succession line were changed for a reason, an by a very wise man, Prince Rainier. I think it a little naive to believe the whole Principaly family didn't put a lot of thought before changing the Constitution: the fact that adoption was ruled out and substituted by CAro and Andrea in line to me shows that Rainier had more faith in Caro than in Albert's judgement, and that he wished to see one of Caro's kids on the throne (with adoption Albert could have chosen anyone as an heir).
I don't know what training Andrea is or is not having, but I firmly believe there's a plan behind this whole issue, so things will be fine for Monaco and the Grimaldi. BTW, I think Stefano had the monegasque citizenship, and in that case, the Casiraghi kids were monegasque since they were born (and I don't see how could they have a French Passport...they must have a Monegasque "diplomatic" one)!

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by Grace

The Constitution and succession line were changed for a reason, an by a very wise man, Prince Rainier. I think it a little naive to believe the whole Principaly family didn't put a lot of thought before changing the Constitution:

I disagree with you, I think that Rainier put a lot of thought into the move; because of Albert's inability or unwillingness to settle down with a suitable wife and raise children, Rainier was stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place when it came to preserving the succession to the throne.

Only later in his life did he change the constitution after which Caroline already had children and was raising them as normal boys - not as heirs to one of the last absolute ruling families in Europe. So I think for the majority of his reign, Rainier was expecting Albert to get married and start a family.

You have to remember that Caroline's children were considered illegitimate for a large part of their childhood because Caroline's and Stefano's marriage at first wasn't recogized by the Pope. This was another obstacle to Caroline's children assuming the throne. Caroline finally got an annulment from the Pope for her first marriage but for a long time it wasn't a sure thing.

Adoption was never going to be considered no matter how noble or how destitute Albert's judgement was. A hereditary system is passed down by blood not by adoption. It would cause too much instability if Albert just adopted a child to make him the next ruler of Monaco. None of the ruling families have anything like this.

Rainier truly had too too few choices to secure the Monegasque throne as he neared the end of his life. Making Caroline Albert's heir was the best of all possible solutions but its not a good solution by any means. It was simply the best of the worst. From what I've seen of Andrea in New York, they don't seem to be preparing him at all for the throne and he's at the age where his character is being set. In a few years, he will be hard to change.

If they want him to succeed, they'd better start training him before he's 30 when people's personalities and habits get set.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by ysbel

I disagree with you, I think that Rainier put a lot of thought into the move; because of Albert's inability or unwillingness to settle down with a suitable wife and raise children, Rainier was stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place when it came to preserving the succession to the throne.

Only later in his life did he change the constitution after which Caroline already had children and was raising them as normal boys - not as heirs to one of the last absolute ruling families in Europe. So I think for the majority of his reign, Rainier was expecting Albert to get married and start a family.

You have to remember that Caroline's children were considered illegitimate for a large part of their childhood because Caroline's and Stefano's marriage at first wasn't recogized by the Pope. This was another obstacle to Caroline's children assuming the throne. Caroline finally got an annulment from the Pope for her first marriage but for a long time it wasn't a sure thing.

Adoption was never going to be considered no matter how noble or how destitute Albert's judgement was. A hereditary system is passed down by blood not by adoption. It would cause too much instability if Albert just adopted a child to make him the next ruler of Monaco. None of the ruling families have anything like this.

Rainier truly had too too few choices to secure the Monegasque throne as he neared the end of his life. Making Caroline Albert's heir was the best of all possible solutions but its not a good solution by any means. It was simply the best of the worst. From what I've seen of Andrea in New York, they don't seem to be preparing him at all for the throne and he's at the age where his character is being set. In a few years, he will be hard to change.

If they want him to succeed, they'd better start training him before he's 30 when people's personalities and habits get set.

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly, but I do think Rainier put a lot of thought into changing the Constituion, and he waited til he saw that Caro had overcome Stefano's death and was capable, in times of need, to succeed her brother.
Just a couple of things: adoption was an option, especially in Monaco, where Rainier's mother was put in line through adoption (she was an illegitimate child); so hadn't the Constituion been changed Albert could have legitimized through adoption one of his children (whereas now he can't) or could have adopted another relative.
The Casiraghi were legitmized in the eyes of the Church in 1995 (by John Paul II), but the catholic legitimacy is not required to become ruling prince, the civil legitimacy is enough.
I have no clue if Andrea is being trained, but I'm pretty sure he is, unless the whole family has other plans. I just hope the other plan is not to rely on Albert for choosing a suitable bride...he just doesn't seem capable of doing that.

[Zonk]

Excellent Points everyone!

I am sure, at some point, the training for Andrea to succeed Albert will begin. Who knows, they probably already have started we are just not privvy to it. I think, however, we are not giving Caroline enough credit. She is after all the next direct heir...I am not sure she will skip herself in favor of Andrea. She might want to give him to time to grow, mature, start a family.

Needless to say, from what I can see...its really Pierre who should be the next heir. Studying business......what a great training ground to run a country. His fascination with models aside...he seems to have his stuff together.

[kaffir]

Originally Posted by Suonymona

I am not familiar enough with Monaco passports. They could be issued under France (like Puerto Ricans travel under USA ones) but with their own covers?

Puerto Rico is part and parcel of the US; not the same as Monaco, a totally separate country.

[Jaya]

Whether you are a Prince and change your laws to suit you possibly might not be able to deny bloodline and dower rights of children legitimate or illegitimate. The term illegitimate firstly is "inappropriate" Perhaps it is pertinent to care about the environment but have offspring who are deemed by one word as outcasts? I fail to comprehend.For anyone who claims to want to protect the environment and take on world initiatives but has fathered children that will be known legally as "illegitimate" which has no bearing in international jurisprudence anymore [I believe but am uncertain] is quite paradoxical to me.
Picasso attempted something similar when he died.He left everything to his wife Jacqueline Roque Picasso and excluded his heirs legitimate and illegitimate.The term "illegitimacy" was then nullified i think because the heirs got together Paulo, Maya, Claude, Paloma and they sued by appealing the will the laws and set a precedent which has been used since then and got what was theirs.So one maybe able to change laws and wills but in the end you might not be able deny"dower" rights as was proved once here in this legal precedent setting case.Jacqueline who was the legitimate wife of Picasso at the time of his death died in 1986 and his other heirs have his monies and works. still..Those who were called illegitimate are still alive and thriving.Is there a moral to this piece of legal history? perhaps..time will tell and the international courtroom maybe..but hopefully not.
JMO

[ysbel]

The issue with illegitimate children is that if they are not raised as Albert's own and in the Monegasque protocol, they won't get the training they need to inherit the throne.

Although Albert is fairly young, if he names an illegitimate child as successor and he dies before the child can come of age, then according to tradition the child's mother could be called upon to act as regent.

Given the type of women that Albert has taken to dating and having children with, I think the rest of the Monegasque government will reject that unanimously if faced with the prospect of one of these women becoming regent.

Even without becoming regent, they still could pose a problem to the Monegasque government.

[libra65]

Originally Posted by Jaya

Whether you are a Prince and change your laws to suit you possibly might not be able to deny bloodline and dower rights of children legitimate or illegitimate. The term illegitimate firstly is "inappropriate" Perhaps it is pertinent to care about the environment but have offspring who are deemed by one word as outcasts? I fail to comprehend.For anyone who claims to want to protect the environment and take on world initiatives but has fathered children that will be known legally as "illegitimate" which has no bearing in international jurisprudence anymore [I believe but am uncertain] is quite paradoxical to me.
Picasso attempted something similar when he died.He left everything to his wife Jacqueline Roque Picasso and excluded his heirs legitimate and illegitimate.The term "illegitimacy" was then nullified i think because the heirs got together Paulo, Maya, Claude, Paloma and they sued by appealing the will the laws and set a precedent which has been used since then and got what was theirs.So one maybe able to change laws and wills but in the end you might not be able deny"dower" rights as was proved once here in this legal precedent setting case.Jacqueline who was the legitimate wife of Picasso at the time of his death died in 1986 and his other heirs have his monies and works. still..Those who were called illegitimate are still alive and thriving.Is there a moral to this piece of legal history? perhaps..time will tell and the international courtroom maybe..but hopefully not.
JMO

We have been round and round on this topic for quite some time in other threads. I believe the bottom line is...they will benefit financially from his personal fortune in his will. However, the Monagasque Constitution states the sovereign must be born of a legal & catholic marriage. I think Rainier locked this up tight as a drum. We all have to remember that the constitution is there to protect the rights & soveignty of a nation & its people. That is done by securing the succession thru Caroline & her heirs. No reason for any changes.

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by libra65

We all have to remember that the constitution is there to protect the rights & soveignty of a nation & its people. That is done by securing the succession thru Caroline & her heirs. No reason for any changes.

Yes but its not only secured by securing the succession for Caroline and her heirs as I mentioned before.

Succession through Caroline is better than the other present alternatives but is not ideal.

[LouAnne]

and what about pierre? isn't it strange...that he were studiing law during one year then he finaly studied economy and management in one of the best university of europe?? perhaps, pierre might be the one who would succeed if Albert die without any heirs...

I don't know...just an idea..

[Jaya]

Without prejudice:
The Monegasque Constitution cannot supercede the rulings of any international courtroom but do not quote me on that.
I think heirs legit and illegit would have to renounce "dower" rights and succession rights without duress when at the age of majority.
Although they might not reign they certainly could cause some legal tangle as in the Picasso case.JMO